[Deftone]

I hear this all the time, this or that cable is neutral, or less neutral or more neutral. What are the criteria for "neutral"? How do know when a cable is neutral? Interested in opinions and examples. 

[Sasha]

You take a good recording of live unamplified acoustic instruments and voices, a recording that you know well, have heard the live performance during recording session, and then play it on your system.
Assuming all other components are neutral you should not hear any colorations, dynamic restrictions, noise, phase problems, etc. Much easier said than done.
The other way is that you have good and precise measurements of all parameters (and no, it is not only impedance that counts), and determine how well it will work with components you will be connecting them with, again assuming you have good knowledge of your components design and measurements of all relevant parameters.
Again much easier said than done.

[Elizabeth]

Experience.
Actually it is very hard to be able to state with 100% certainty anything about 'a' specific item. Just because nothing is heard in total isolation. it is always in conjunction with other items.

So what one needs is a bunch of stuff one KNOWS well.
Starting with recordings, Finding recordings which give a wide range of specific types of things, treble, female vocals, male vocals, Saxophone, piano, bass, mids, massed violins... all the things you care about, and then some you do not, but know can be important. Then they also have to 'sing' to YOU, that is you NEVER tire of hearing them.

and continuing through various electronics one has heard in other combinations. So you have an idea of what each of the electronic parts sounds like in a variety of situations.

I have two cable sorts i have heard through a lot of variations: a handmade cable with "Mark Levinson" wire, and Kimber KCAG. (And a third I currently do not use, Kimber PBJ)
So these cables i can say I 'know' what they do. The Levinson is very much like original Cardas, warm, soft focus, The KCAG is clear, a little bright, almost. The PBJ is the most neutral, but a little fuzzy. My replacement for the PBJ, Kimber Hero, is the same but not fuzzy, only I have NOT used it on several systems to say I 'know' it.
So here I have some wire I know. and now I used my current system for a year or so, along with the digital stuff i have had for many years...
So I can decide where to use what wires.
All my digital uses the Levinson wire. And the phono the KCAG, the outputs are Hero.
Is my system neutral? NO. it is a little thin, due to using so many power conditioners, I trade off the clarity I want, for a little thinness in the lower mids.

[Anonamemouse]

The problem is that there is no way to test this. A cable can have perfect measurements, and still have a serious impact on the sound.

Like mentioned earlier, you can test cables through listening. Unfortunately the human memory for sound is rather poor, one forgets nuances and minor details only a few seconds after they were heard. So the only true comparisan is listen to A (the original source, as in singer or instrument playing) and B (the audio equipment as a whole) at the same time, and somehow make it possible to instantly switch between the two of them.

The next issue will be: Which component is responsible for what effect on the sound? Does a cable make it brighter/fuzzier/muffelder/etc, or the amp, or the loudspeakers? Unless you find a way to test everything in about a million different configurations, there is no way to figure it out.

In the end it is all personal preference... I like the sound I have here with my Nordost Red Dawns, although many people will find it too bright and fast...

[James Tanner]

I hear this all the time, this or that cable is neutral, or less neutral or more neutral. What are the criteria for "neutral"? How do know when a cable is neutral? Interested in opinions and examples. 

A cable is Neutral if it's not in Drive or Reverse

james

[etcarroll]

A cable is Neutral if it's not in Drive or Reverse

james

Somebody give that man a rimshot! 

[PRELUDE]

Why going active is highly ignored when cables and power cords have such a big discussion yet?
It was the only improvement that left a big smile on my face.

[Anonamemouse]

A whole range of neutrality...

[danman]

No offense to anyone but why would you even bother to care if a cable is neutral? Whatever that means!
Maybe it's just me but worrying about those things takes away the fundamental idea of just sitting and listening to the music. Maybe some of us tend to listen more to our equipments little details and forget to enjoy the tunes sometimes!
I have seen differences in only certain cables such as power cords and balanced cables but could never hear any difference between a 50$ speaker cable or a 5000$ one! at least I could say there was no way the extra 4500$ made more than a 5% difference!

To each his own.

[CSI]

Maybe it's just me but worrying about those things takes away the fundamental idea of just sitting and listening to the music.

I think we all fall into the trap from time to time.
Someone once said that music is the ultimate distortion an audiophile has to put up with in order to listen to his equipment.

[ec]

[SoundGame]

Not to be offensive but I thought it ironic that this question around neutrality was raised by a member with the name "deftone" or as I took it "tone deaf"...

That said, that all being held equal (which it never is) you would want as much neutrality in your overall system as possible - in other words that your system, including the cables does not add or remove anything from the original source file / recording.  This is never the case in the real world; however, there are components and cables that tend to like closer to the idea than others.

It is though easier to detect a cable or component that is excessively bright or dark v.s. having absolute neutrality.  All in all, it comes down to the listener's reference point and quality of hearing.  Just like we all smell and taste slightly differently, we all hear slightly differently. 

[headshrinker2]

I think this is an excellent post/thread.  How does one assess neutrality?  In theory, the idea of electronics reproducing a performance as faithfully as possible sounds darn appealing to me.  While I wouldn't be able to objectively rate neutrality, I think I could more easily hear when particular frequency ranges are either thin/anemic or overly hyped. 

But, is neutrality what everybody wants when they listen to their system?  For example, would many rather have a smooth and seductive midrange?  Or an exceptionally airly upper register?  Or tons of bass? 

[SoundGame]

I think this is an excellent post/thread.  How does one assess neutrality?  In theory, the idea of electronics reproducing a performance as faithfully as possible sounds darn appealing to me.  While I wouldn't be able to objectively rate neutrality, I think I could more easily hear when particular frequency ranges are either thin/anemic or overly hyped. 

But, is neutrality what everybody wants when they listen to their system?  For example, would many rather have a smooth and seductive midrange?  Or an exceptionally airly upper register?  Or tons of bass?

There are three kinds of listeners/audiophiles: 1) The Purists; 2) The Realists; 3) The Idealist.

1) The Purists: want their system to reflect as close to exactly what was recorded - good or bad - dynamic or not - just exactly what was put on the media in the studio.

2) The Realist: wants their system to sound as real as possible.  They compare live music to what their system sounds like and hope to close this gap

3) The Idealist: wants their system to sound as beutiful as possible irrespective of the recording or whether or not it sounds real.  They want lush strings, resonances, full body, liquidity etc.

I'm myself lie somewhere between 1 and 2, almost smack dab between.  I want my system to reveal the recording, it's details and any imperfections in it but I also want to be fooled into thinking I'm at a live event.  Hence - I will never probably be completely happy but I'll enjoy the pursuit.

Given Bryston's studio heritage - I would think that Bryston components lean toward The Purist but with the "squared" models have now crouched in on the Realist.  Maybe that's why I like the sound of Bryston.

[vegasdave]

There are three kinds of listeners/audiophiles: 1) The Purists; 2) The Realists; 3) The Idealist.

1) The Purists: want their system to reflect as close to exactly what was recorded - good or bad - dynamic or not - just exactly what was put on the media in the studio.

2) The Realist: wants their system to sound as real as possible.  They compare live music to what their system sounds like and hope to close this gap

3) The Idealist: wants their system to sound as beutiful as possible irrespective of the recording or whether or not it sounds real.  They want lush strings, resonances, full body, liquidity etc.

I'm myself lie somewhere between 1 and 2, almost smack dab between.  I want my system to reveal the recording, it's details and any imperfections in it but I also want to be fooled into thinking I'm at a live event.  Hence - I will never probably be completely happy but I'll enjoy the pursuit.

Given Bryston's studio heritage - I would think that Bryston components lean toward The Purist but with the "squared" models have now crouched in on the Realist.  Maybe that's why I like the sound of Bryston.

I'm definitely in the second category. I want the system to sound like live music as much as possible. Of course getting there is very tough. I like the sound of Bryston for the same reasons you cited.

[danman]

I am also between 1 and 2. I would like to have both as one

[Diamond Dog]

Maybe it's just me but worrying about those things takes away the fundamental idea of just sitting and listening to the music. Maybe some of us tend to listen more to our equipments little details and forget to enjoy the tunes sometimes!
I have seen differences in only certain cables such as power cords and balanced cables but could never hear any difference between a 50$ speaker cable or a 5000$ one! at least I could say there was no way the extra 4500$ made more than a 5% difference!

 Agree wholeheartedly that the system is a means to an end but for me, the more "neutral" my system becomes, the easier it is for me to just disappear into the music ( which is my ultimate goal ). I do not want to be conscious of my gear.
 I envy anyone who can't hear discernable differences between different speaker cables and IC's - you're gonna save a lot of cash ! 
I can say that hearing what really good speaker cables (and to a somewhat lesser extent IC's) could do for my system was really surprising to me. YMMV !

D.D.

[Diamond Dog]

There are three kinds of listeners/audiophiles: 1) The Purists; 2) The Realists; 3) The Idealist.

I think this is a fascinating observation. I would probably place myself in the Purist camp- I want to hear it the way it was intended to be heard. I have always felt that with some of my favorite artists, the "sound" of an album is a part of the overall artistic statement and so I want to hear what they were getting at. I also hesitate in a lot of cases to equate how a studio recording sounds with a live performance of the same material- they can be two very different beasts. Certain studio works ( say - OK Computer as an example ) have such a vibe / ambience as a result of the whole recording process that would be difficult if not impossible to totally recreate in a live setting. And for that matter, so many classic " live " recordings ( my favorite examples being Thin Lizzy's Live & Dangerous and Kiss Alive ) have so little "live" left in them that they can't really be equated with the actual in-concert live music experience either.

D.D.

[werd]

How do you know if your cable is neutral?

Well you need really good gear or a conscious initiative to build it that way. Just owning an all Bryston system is not enough. No where near. You need good treated AC and a developed cable strategy to do it.

In the end a full out neutral system may not be what you want. The most colored cable i know of are the Wywires ic's. The best neutral cable i know are the Empirical Audio ic's.

They are both excellent and they both have their place in my cable strategy. Right now i use wywires in xlr from my bdp to bda -  Emp audio from my BDA to my pre amp and Wywires to my power amp. The 

[Elizabeth]

The hijack idea: three types intrigues me.
I am a realist, of the three.
More by elimination of purist, I know i am not a purist. I do not need every CD or LP to be exactly what was recorded.
I am not an idealist, as i do not have the need for that sort of 1950's ideal sound Thick, fat midrange, warm and cozy. yuck.
I think i 'more like the typical Japanese audiophile, in that i like clarity.
So by default i wind up in the middle as a realist. I take what I get as long as it sounds pretty real to me.