Time for a phonostage upgrade

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joegator81

Time for a phonostage upgrade
« on: 25 May 2011, 11:44 pm »
I'm looking to upgrade my current phonostage. My pricepoint would be $500 tops (got a wedding to pay for), but i don't mind looking used. I'm currently using a Cambridge Audio 640P phonostage w/ a Technics 1700 mkII and an AT 150mlx cartridge. Preamp is Parasound Classic 2100. Power amp is Avahifi Insight 240/3. Speakers are Salk Songtowers crossed over to an Epik Legend handling the low lows.

I realize that at this price point i probably won't be able to get a "perfectly" neutral phonostage so if i've got to er it would be to a more laid back, relaxing sound.

I've thought of the Vincent PHO-8, Musical Surroundings Phonomena I or II (havent read much about the differences between these), and the Jolida 9. So, any opinions or recommendations?

S Clark

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Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #1 on: 25 May 2011, 11:52 pm »
Well, this looks like a familiar thread.  :D

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94716.0

joegator81

Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #2 on: 26 May 2011, 12:18 am »
hmmmm... must of missed that one in my search. Thanks for the link!

Just off the top of your head how would you compare the Vista to Jasmine tonewise, is one more laidback, more dynamic etc...

Thanks.

jimdgoulding

Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #3 on: 26 May 2011, 12:51 am »
One you might add to your list is a Simaudio Moon LP3 MM/MC phono stage, $499 at Music Direct.  You can probably find some useful info about the Jolida on AC or online somewhere.  The Moon LP3, too, probably.

Gopher

Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #4 on: 26 May 2011, 01:20 am »
hmmmm... must of missed that one in my search. Thanks for the link!

Just off the top of your head how would you compare the Vista to Jasmine tonewise, is one more laidback, more dynamic etc...

Thanks.

They're more similar than different tone-wise, with the Jasmine offering a little more resolution and refinement.  Tonally, dynamically and overall muscially, the two are peers--at least when I listened to both in my friend's rig.  I do own the Jasmine and enjoy it a good deal.

dlaloum

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Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #5 on: 26 May 2011, 01:39 am »
I'm looking to upgrade my current phonostage. My pricepoint would be $500 tops (got a wedding to pay for), but i don't mind looking used. I'm currently using a Cambridge Audio 640P phonostage w/ a Technics 1700 mkII and an AT 150mlx cartridge. Preamp is Parasound Classic 2100. Power amp is Avahifi Insight 240/3. Speakers are Salk Songtowers crossed over to an Epik Legend handling the low lows.

I realize that at this price point i probably won't be able to get a "perfectly" neutral phonostage so if i've got to er it would be to a more laid back, relaxing sound.

I've thought of the Vincent PHO-8, Musical Surroundings Phonomena I or II (havent read much about the differences between these), and the Jolida 9. So, any opinions or recommendations?

Most of the differences with regards to "neutral" or "laid back" are related to frequency spectrum variation.... which in turn is primarily related to loading and not so much to phono stage.
ie: loading makes a much bigger difference than phono stage (as long as you have enough gain and accurate RIAA EQ)

Of the ones you have mentioned, the phonomena are the only ones that offer decent loading options, and they also have a great reputation.

To your list I would add as a possibility:

Firestone Audio Korora

I recently upgraded my own phono stage - and was having a hard time choosing...

My list ended up with

Korora
Phonomena
JLTI

The JLTI is by far the most expensive - but a great deal swung me that way regardless.

All of these have the ability to adjust cartridge loading widely - which will do far more for achieving a neutral (or warm / laid back ... take you pick you choose how you want to tune it!) result than the usual buy and pray approach.

The JLTI achieves this through loading plug RCA connectors at the rear - you need to purchase or make loading plugs of whatever value desired/required. - Advantage is infinite flexibility, disadvantage is the need to solder the plugs, or purchase them seperately.
The JLTI needs to be ordered / specified with a higher than standard inbuilt resistor to take maximum advantage of this - mine has 500k Ohm internal.

The Korora has dip switches internally, providing some adjustment capability, but also an empty resistor slot, which can be filled with a high value resistor (500k or 1M) - after which an external double adaptor and loading plugs can be used as per the JLTI. (when ordering it, you can ask the factory to fit the desired resistor at no charge...)

The Phonomena is the easiest to use of the 3 in that it has these dip switches at the rear which provide a lot of settings without needing to have loading plugs. Most of these settings are unfortunately MC focused, only 50k and 100k are for MM/MI - but using external loading plugs will then allow variation between 50k and 100k as well as below 50k.

I have not adjusted an AT150MLx for optimum, but as a couple of examples:


AT440MLa - best at 32k (best being defined as flattest most neutral response) - (200pf)
Shure M97xE - best at 62k with original stylus (400-500pf)
Shure M97xE with SAS - best at 47k (400-500pf)

Every cartridge / stylus combination is a bit different - so varying the stylus type on a cartridge will vary the optimum load... (the two MAY have the same optimum load, but it is unlikely - as per the N97xE vs the SAS above)

Good luck with your decision

bye for now

David


dlaloum

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Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #6 on: 26 May 2011, 01:42 am »
Well, this looks like a familiar thread.  :D

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=94716.0

And the suggestions look just as familiar...

jimdgoulding

Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #7 on: 26 May 2011, 03:13 am »
David-  Thanks for your post.  The phono pre I use for my MM cartridge is a Monolithic Sound PS-1 (don't know if they're still made).  It has DIP switches on the rear for capacitance loading and frequency contouring.  I set it up for a Grado Sonata Reference which I use with it many moons ago.  You've stimulated me to revisit my settings and see what happens.

dlaloum

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Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #8 on: 26 May 2011, 04:07 am »
Just one warning...

The Grado's are the least responsive to loading that I have found.

I have been having a bit of a debate with LuckyDog out on VinylEngine about this.... I took my Grado gold and measured the frequency response at 5 different resistance loads and 4 different capacitance loads (20 combinations)...
Although the raw level varied with load, the actual spectral response did not....
So contrary to a number of people's reports, I have actually measured the Grado and can confirm what Grado Labs say of their cartridge - it is insensitive to capacitance variation.
More importantly it appears to be relatively (there are VERY small variations) insensitive to resistive load changes too.

With regards to the Grado design, it appears to be plug and play - very little tuning is possible (in this regard).

With Shure, Ortofon, AT, Empire, JVC, ADC, Technics MM & MI cartridges on the other hand, the variations possible are dramatic and extreme....you can make or wreck the sound with loading.

The Grado really is a strange beast, neither fish nor fowl (so to speak) - behaves more like a MC cartridge, but isn't....

bye for now

David

jimdgoulding

Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #9 on: 26 May 2011, 04:27 am »
Thank you for that response.  Yes, the Grado literature says not to worry about capacitive loading.  Says it's immune.  I have a Koetsu Black, also.  Maybe we can discuss that puppy at a later date.  Thanks, again.

dlaloum

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Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #10 on: 26 May 2011, 05:28 am »
I have a couple of HO MC's and one LO MC (as opposed to around 100 different MM / MI's)

My knowledge of MC's is.... nascent..... I havn't got around to doing the same level of analysis with the MC's that I have done with the MM/MI's

So perhaps you can show me a thing or two!

TONEPUB

Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #11 on: 26 May 2011, 05:54 am »
Got a perfect Naim Stageline if you want it.  $350 shipped.

DaveyW

Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #12 on: 26 May 2011, 06:09 am »
Hi David
We've definitely got differing experiences re. Grado loading.
Agreed - Grado's are very insensitive to capacative loading, but without exception I have found that they are receptive to resistive load tweaks.
Various different carts on at least 3 Phono stages I got the typical rolling back of the top end and upper mids with reduced load and vice versa.
In fact there are very few Grado's that I prefer at the stock 47k.
Interesting eh!
Dave


 

dlaloum

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Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #13 on: 26 May 2011, 06:16 am »
Hi Dave

yes LD made similar comments.... somewhat more bluntly...

Here are my measurements... I used the exact same method I used for the AT440MLa and other cartridges - where my results were consisten with other peoples reports.
But with the Grado - well here is a graph of the results...


I may just remeasure again - rechecking everything... this bugs me - the fact that my measurements are out of line with (multiple) other people's.... but I cannot see where I am going wrong....  :?

As you can see there is a slight variation with differing resistances - the lower R's are a touch better (the peak is overall reduced compared to lower frequencies) - but the difference is truly marginal in the overall scheme of things.

The Dotted lines are the LCR electrical model predictions... the solid lines are the measured cartridge response.

Test disk was CBS STR151 RIAA test record using the frequency sweep track, running at 45rpm (to allow measurement of up to 30kHz) and then equalised to compensate (reverse RIAA followed by RIAA adjusted for the speed variation)

The response also matches the Miller Audio Research published F/R chart for the Grado Red.... but that test didn't play with loading....

joegator81

Re: Time for a phonostage upgrade
« Reply #14 on: 27 May 2011, 10:06 pm »
I'd like to add one more possibility to the pile: Grant Fidelity P-307 ($325).

I have to admit that i am concerned about the 10% restocking fee if i don't like it. Also, i was only able to find one review (affordableaudio.com) but it was fairly positive and seems like it would be synergistic with my system.

Thoughts?