[mikeeastman]

I'm going to run a dedicated circuit for my bedroom system, it's about 90 ft, I'm using 8/2 w gr Romex and plan to  eliminate the plugs and receptacles and solder the equipment power cords  to the Romex, other than connivence is this a problem. I also will be croying the romex and power cords, would it be better to cryo after the cords are soldered to the Romex or does it matter? If I use filtering does it matter if it is at supply end or at equipment end? Or some on both ends? Not sure about the filtering as I'm off the grid and my power is supplied by an inverter and I will be connecting to inverter before rest of house circuits. Any suggestion on isolating this circuit from rest of house? Would it help to cryo the circuit breaker and connectors in this sub panel? 
 System is Mac book,Apogee Ensemble dac,( both 12v so they will use power supplies) Jolida intergraded hybrid and GR servo sub.
     

[rollo]

   First I would shield the 90 ft run of Romex. Mechanical connections are pereferred over soldered connections. A simple twist on connector will work fine. A cryoed outlet and breaker couldn't hurt.
   A sub panel will isolate from the house circuits. More important IMO is the grounding scheme. A copper rod in the ground with super tight connection and proper gauged wire will do more than you think.
   Dave can chime in to correct or inhance my findings.


charles
   

[mikeeastman]

Thanks Charles, shielding how and with what? Why is mechanical preferred? Ground rod not very effective in my area (desert very dry ground) I use an UFA for ground, not practical to add another one at this point. Is there a way to isolate the grounds?

   Mike

[dBe]

I'm going to run a dedicated circuit for my bedroom system, it's about 90 ft, I'm using 8/2 w gr Romex and plan to  eliminate the plugs and receptacles and solder the equipment power cords  to the Romex, other than connivence is this a problem. I also will be croying the romex and power cords, would it be better to cryo after the cords are soldered to the Romex or does it matter? If I use filtering does it matter if it is at supply end or at equipment end? Or some on both ends? Not sure about the filtering as I'm off the grid and my power is supplied by an inverter and I will be connecting to inverter before rest of house circuits. Any suggestion on isolating this circuit from rest of house? Would it help to cryo the circuit breaker and connectors in this sub panel? 
 System is Mac book,Apogee Ensemble dac,( both 12v so they will use power supplies) Jolida intergraded hybrid and GR servo sub.
   

Ambitious undertaking... cool

First, cryo everything that you can.  It's like chicken soup - it can't hurt and it will help the overall sonics.

Shielding the romex is a good idea, but if this is too much of a hassle, twist the romex at least 1 turn per foot.

I wouldn't solder the connections.  Solder is glue and not very good glue at that, especially when it comes to electrical connections.  A cold weld (VERY hard crimp) is a better connector electrically.  I would personally use heavy duty 1/4" ring connectors hard crimped to the wires and connected together with a copper (or brass) bolt and nut.  Use Caig DeOxit when assembling the connection and wrap with fusible tape.  Do this for each leg and you will have a bulletproof connection that you can get apart when you need to do so.

Heavy duty crimpers are the most important tools that I have for electrical work.  Don't forget to thoroughly clean the wire being crimped.  Again, DeOxit is your friend.

Have fun and be very careful with attention to the details.

Edit:  I just read that you are using an ufer ground.  That is fine as long as the alkalai in the concrete doesn't screw with the electrical connections to the rebar.  A better solution might be to drive a ground rod and vent grey water to the ground rod to keep the area moist.

Dave

[jtwrace]

....and make sure what you do is up to code. 

[tasar]

I was also thinking of running a separate line as a ground loop seems to be raising hell especially with DC in the room and the sensitive Super V coax and servo. I assume we're talking a separate breaker inside the existing panel. I'm lost when you speak of "shielding" the romex. I was going to run underground quality (covered) 10ga cable directly out of panel box thru the concrete wall in romex and then bare cable thru the ground before re-entering the basement wall from the outside. Of course this wire cable could not affectively be cryoed but then I am not sure how expensive that process would be for 36' of run ? Then again, I could run normal underground cable from the basement main to a separately grounded sub box outside the wall of re-entry, that way, I cryo the "last mile", about 10' of cabling thru romex . Any of this make sense ? And upon re-entry, what type of multiple outlet bank (duplex, quadplex) would you consider ?

[dBe]

I was also thinking of running a separate line as a ground loop seems to be raising hell especially with DC in the room and the sensitive Super V coax and servo. I assume we're talking a separate breaker inside the existing panel. I'm lost when you speak of "shielding" the romex. I was going to run underground quality (covered) 10ga cable directly out of panel box thru the concrete wall in romex and then bare cable thru the ground before re-entering the basement wall from the outside. Of course this wire cable could not affectively be cryoed but then I am not sure how expensive that process would be for 36' of run ? Then again, I could run normal underground cable from the basement main to a separately grounded sub box outside the wall of re-entry, that way, I cryo the "last mile", about 10' of cabling thru romex . Any of this make sense ? And upon re-entry, what type of multiple outlet bank (duplex, quadplex) would you consider ?

Wait!!!  Are you going to or not going to use direct burial cable?  I'm confused by what you wrote.  If you use direct burial cable in the ground, you are pretty much shielded if you go to code required depth.  That is the easy part.  50' of direct burial 10 ga is running about $100.00 here (IIRC).  Contact me directly for a cryo quote.  I would hang a quad box on the end and go from there.

Dave

[mikeeastman]

Thanks for input. As for shielding I could use conduit, pvc, aluminum,steel or copper pipe which would work best ? Changing my ground or grey water location not practical in my situation. When we do an UFA the ground wire is wrapped around the rebar for 30' to 40'. The dealer I bought my fuses from said when asked about cryoing them " while it may seem to give a blacker background, it may also lose some of the harmonics and tonal richness." any comment? What type of ring connecters, standard aluminum or gold plated or ? Should I use the same connections for my d/c power runs for my d/c system. It is a 15' run of 4 #4 cables to a j box with runs of #8 to the equipment from there. I was also going to cryo these and the 2/0 battery interconnects, any reason not to? As far as code goes I find it is often determined by factor other than what is best, like what is cheapest, especially in structural matter, that why when I build I do what is best, which is usually more than what code calls for.

  Mike

[dBe]

Thanks for input. As for shielding I could use conduit, pvc, aluminum,steel or copper pipe which would work best ? Changing my ground or grey water location not practical in my situation. When we do an UFA the ground wire is wrapped around the rebar for 30' to 40'. The dealer I bought my fuses from said when asked about cryoing them " while it may seem to give a blacker background, it may also lose some of the harmonics and tonal richness." any comment? What type of ring connecters, standard aluminum or gold plated or ? Should I use the same connections for my d/c power runs for my d/c system. It is a 15' run of 4 #4 cables to a j box with runs of #8 to the equipment from there. I was also going to cryo these and the 2/0 battery interconnects, any reason not to? As far as code goes I find it is often determined by factor other than what is best, like what is cheapest, especially in structural matter, that why when I build I do what is best, which is usually more than what code calls for.

  Mike

Mike, first a word about codes.  Any reasonable person that has looked at the problem presented in wiring will generally do at least what code calls for.  You seem to be more than reasonable.  You are thinking things through and going the extra mile.  Just make sure that you have an equally reasonable inspector if you will have this inspected - they can step on the cake.

PVC will not shield it.  Use EMT or rigid.

Looks like your ground integrity will be OK, too.  Here is a great resource for anyone doing a serious electrical system:  http://www.solacity.com/Docs/Erico%20-%20Practical%20Guide%20To%20Electrical%20Grounding.pdf and another:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_Ground

Cryo - is a good thing.  When your dealer said that cryoing the fuses "may also lose some of the harmonics and tonal richness" I couldn't disagree more.  Every item I have cryoed has benefitted from the process.

Dave

[mikeeastman]

Thanks Dave, I design and install solar system they all meet or exceed code except in a few thing like GFI circuit which half the brands  won't work with inverters, also most inverters are more sensitive than GFIs or circuit breakers so the inverter will shut down before any thing else trips. As far as inspector are concerned I live in boondocks and they only come out if forced to, also in over 40 years in construction I only met one that actually knew any thing about building and that was in L.A. the ones around here are particularly lacking on any real knowledge of building. Would there be any reason to also twist the wire in the conduit and if so should I strip outer insulation on the Romex and twist the  individual wires?

[dBe]

Thanks Dave, I design and install solar system they all meet or exceed code except in a few thing like GFI circuit which half the brands  won't work with inverters, also most inverters are more sensitive than GFIs or circuit breakers so the inverter will shut down before any thing else trips. As far as inspector are concerned I live in boondocks and they only come out if forced to, also in over 40 years in construction I only met one that actually knew any thing about building and that was in L.A. the ones around here are particularly lacking on any real knowledge of building. Would there be any reason to also twist the wire in the conduit and if so should I strip outer insulation on the Romex and twist the  individual wires?

Mike,

You "should" be able to buy romex that is already twisted.  There are several places here that sell it that way.  I'm sure you can find it online if you don't have a source out there in the boonies. 

The other thing is that with the short run that you have (if you do it in EMT conduit) twisting won't buy you much.  Theoretically speaking - yes ; functionally - no.  Balancing the inductance and capacitance of the electrical wiring inside conduit or rigid is for the real electrical purity loons out on the fringes, methinks.

Dave

[mikeeastman]

Thank you Dave, as you can probably tell I can over do sometimes and I appreciate the practical advice. What type of ring connecters would you recommend?

  Mike

[dBe]

Thank you Dave, as you can probably tell I can over do sometimes and I appreciate the practical advice. What type of ring connecters would you recommend?

  Mike

MIke, I get mine from the electrical supply house.  They are Thomas and Betts brand.  Any good heavy duty ring tongue connector will be just fine as long as it is solid copper. Tin plated is just fine here.  I buff the tin plating to a luster with a ScotchBrite pad before I assemble them to make sure they are clean and then tighten the snot out of the connection.  The most important aspects of the whole thing is a good crimper and clean parts and pieces.

Anal retentive is a good thing when it comes to electricity

Dave

[tasar]

Wait!!!  Are you going to or not going to use direct burial cable?  I'm confused by what you wrote.  If you use direct burial cable in the ground, you are pretty much shielded if you go to code required depth.  That is the easy part.  50' of direct burial 10 ga is running about $100.00 here (IIRC).  Contact me directly for a cryo quote.  I would hang a quad box on the end and go from there.

Dave

Dave......yeah, take burial wire from main panel outside the wall and then a 25' run thru the ground (might cheat and bury 2' opposed to 4') then to a external box then cryoed 12 or 14 ga thru wall down into a good quadplex(your choice ?) in audio room below. BIG question before doing so, will I lose the ground loop running separate from the main panel, or does any ground loop problem start at the main box ?

[dBe]

Dave......yeah, take burial wire from main panel outside the wall and then a 25' run thru the ground (might cheat and bury 2' opposed to 4') then to a external box then cryoed 12 or 14 ga thru wall down into a good quadplex(your choice ?) in audio room below. BIG question before doing so, will I lose the ground loop running separate from the main panel, or does any ground loop problem start at the main box ?

Dave, I've never had a groundloop when using a homerun.  As long as there are no other ground connections (ESPECIALLY from a cable or satellite coax) you should be good to go.

Dave

[tasar]

Dave, I've never had a groundloop when using a homerun.  As long as there are no other ground connections (ESPECIALLY from a cable or satellite coax) you should be good to go.

Dave

Cool Dave......now should I run the ground from the main panel or simply the 2 conductors and then separately ground the sub box before re-entering the house ? Ughhhh

[dBe]

Cool Dave......now should I run the ground from the main panel or simply the 2 conductors and then separately ground the sub box before re-entering the house ? Ughhhh

Ground EVERYTHING at the main panel to the ground buss there.  If you ground at the subpanel you will probably have different ground/common potentials and guess what?  Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Dave