[dogdog49]

Hi there. I'm considering trying ribbon based speakers and have seen a ton of useful information on VMPS products in the Circles, but very little on Newform which is another brand I'm considering. Has anyone had any direct experience with both brands that could shed a little light on their relative strengths and weaknesses? Thanks in advance for your help.

[azryan]

The short answer is that they’re so drastically diff. that you might as well be asking how any speaker compares to any other, but both are certainly renowned for their clarity/transparency and amazing B&M ass-kicking value -and both happen to be planar/woofer hybrid designs.

Also, both have been called ugly probably as often or more-so than called good looking. hehe (I have mixed feeling on this for both).

The longer answer is....

Last I heard Newform  really only had two main speaker, but recently added some new slight variations but they still seem mainly sell the 630's and 645's models.

The 630's use the world class Scan Speak 7" 8545 paper/carbonfiber woofer for the mids and bass, and the 30" Newform quasi-ribbon (really two 15" quasi-ribbon sections) for a very broadband tweeter.

The 645's use dual 8545's and the three 15" ribbon section 45" quasi-ribbon.

The price, effi, freq. range,. and power handling seem to fit well to compare to the VMPS RM-1 and 2 IMO (though the actual ‘real’ prices of VMPS depends so hard to say).

I own both of these Newform models and have heard the VMPS 30's, 40's and X.

I chose to buy the 645's having owned the 630's and hearing no other speakers in hi-fi shops that could beat them for anywhere near the price.

You I’m sure have heard this same type of story about VMPS.

The Newform cabinets are well made and decent bracing, but plain black vinyl finish. No options last I heard.

The x-over is simple but cheap and most owners who frequent the forums have replaced them. There aren’t a lot of parts there so it’s not hard to do nor costly.
Most rave about it. I found there to be a good, but far less than rave-worthy improvement though.

There’s a quirk to how they output their sound being a point source under a line source. Depending on distance you sit from them the ribbon section will be more or less pronounced.

This is a subtle thing IMO though, and your room’s live or deadness will make more of a diff. IMO.

You do get a very tall ‘grand’ sound from them that a lot of speakers just don’t do. VMPS has many designs that do not all act the same so there’s no one way to describe their soundstage.

I don’t think you’ll get that height from the VMPS models in Newform’s price range.

A bigger quirk in the Newform’s that the 15" ribbon section’s greatest output is from the center of each ribbon.

Since the woofer cabinet is floor mounted and 30" tall (on both models), it means your ears need to be about 33-37" high to really get the right output -lining them up w/ the middle of the bottom ribbon section.

Being a really narrow yet long line there’s a drastic drop off in ribbon output when above or below the ribbon.

How much of this same effect you get from VMPS’s planars is based on how many planars are in the speaker, and also take into account the diff. Range those dirvers are playing vs. the Newform ribbon.

Anyway... a low deep chair might put you way below the ribbon. Standing up you’ll get some drop off from the 60" tall 630's, but not from the 75" tall 645's. Depends on your height and distance though.

They’re great tweeters IMO, but they’ve been around for a loooong time and I think could use a redesign of lighter, thinner magnets and face that could mount next to a woofer line in the same cabinet.

Their ferrite magnets attract in all directions so don’t put ‘em by TV and don’t get a screwdriver or anything near ‘em.
The steel case jacket on them is super slippery smooth and VERY heavy, so careful esp. on putting the 45" ribbon onto the woofer section.

Many Newform owners (myself incl.) feel the quasi-ribbon is better than the Magnepan quasi-ribbon -if that pint of reference helps.

I haven’t heard the Maggie true ribbon models (which cost a LOT more) but several who have posted they felt the Newform ribbon equals them (and seeing as it’s better IMO than the Maggie quasi-ribbons I trust this to be a reasonable opinion).

The Scan Speak woofers are outstanding IMO too.

You can see their use in a TON of outstanding speakers (so obviously held in high regard by many professionals too).

Newform are probably the cheapest speakers to use those drivers (nOrh who uses them too I think gets a close 2nd place) of the two dozen or so brands I’ve seen.

Newform takes advantage of this driver’s VERY low resonance freq. and very long travel to run them down deep, and since the Newform ribbon crosses so low you’re just not anywhere near the woofer’s top end break-up point.

The VMPS like the Newform’s are monopole.

IMO that’s the right way to go too, but certainly others prefer the dipole nature of open planar drivers.
VMPS’s midrange planar (please don’t call it a ribbon ‘cuz it not) can be used as an open dipole, but is not used like that in their designs.

The VMPS are three-ways plus pas. radiator vs. ported bass in the Newforms. Both methods work very well from each.

VMPS seem much harder to position, but then are adjustable with the bass damping. The adjustable broadband midrange and super tweeter IMO is a drawback not an an advantage and can’t counter a room’s effect like I often seem implied by owners.

Newform’s are very easy to place and so getting in the right spot to load the room for bass isn’t that hard if you have the dedicated room.

VMPS probably has the advantage if your room have some key restrictions for you (like placement far from walls and reflection damping).

VMPS uses better quality x-over parts, but I feel the tuning pots (L-Pads) are cheap and are more of a harm than a benefit to the signal path.
You’ll of course find almost all VMPS owners to disagree with me.

I’m not saying they ruin the sound. I’m just calling them a detriment IMO.

Advantage -debatable IMO.

VMPS’s cabinets in the RM-1 and 2 I believe are not braced at all (other than the RMX and the Chinese built RM-40's),
The Newform’s are also VERY narrow so there’s almost no baffle face for the drivers -something VMPS now only really approaches in the RM-30 and matches in the X’s.

Advantage Newform IMO.

The VMPS planars play a LOT deeper than the Newform ribbon. This gives them a speed and clarity that is hard to beat in the midrange.

The world class woofers in the Newforms are considered good enough to be used in the $20K Wilson WATT’s which cross higher in the midrange than Newform so they’re no slouch either.

The sound of the Scan Speak woofer being paper will give you a natural tone to the midrange and bass while the Newform ribbon will impart all the detail with great quality.

VMPS having a planar play as deeply as it does... you will lose dynamic ‘impact’ that you feel from a woofer pushing air vs. a planar that it only vibrating it in the midrange. VMPS does of course then have that impact in the bass range using woofers.

Some people do not miss that midrange impact for the gain of extra detail.

I felt that deep range to cross a high air pushing driver to a no air pushing driver made their x-over point less than seamless every time I’ve heard them.

Advantage -Highly debatable IMO -but personally I would miss that impact. Your music tastes might help steer your own needs here.

Also the VMPS planars (‘cept only in the RM-X I believe) are open to the inside of the cabinet. This means the internal pressure that is making the passive radiators move is also pushing the plastic VMPS neo panel film.
You can guess that this would not be a good thing.

The Newform ribbon is in it’s own sepp. case totally sepperated from the woofer’s backwave pressure.
It’s x-over is only one large value cap and needs no other driver to cover any treble info.

There’s a lot more ‘stuff’ between the midrange and driver sections of VMPS vs. Newform which I think relates to transparency/detail as much as woofer vs. planar midrange speed.
Well... maybe not ‘as much’, but it’s an issue IMO.

VMPS’s push/pull, clamped on all sides planar will have greater inherent control than the Newform’s single ended, ‘clamped at the ends’ quasi-ribbons.

When really pushed the neo panel will stay in control, but the ribbons will twist a little.

I’m not sure how much power a single VMPS neo can handle though -meaning where it begins to get stressed, but the Newform ribbon can handle a good amount of power and since it’s only playing the tweeter range it won’t get stressed as easily as the neo panel I believe.

Neo magnets are a LOT stronger than ferrite, but the Newforms’ magnets are HUGE compared to the VMPS’s neo magnets so I don’t know the magnetic strength of either design.

The width of the Newform woofer and ribbon and the range they play means neither will beam at all.

I never quite felt the Newform’s woofer and ribbon sections 100% blended together seamlessly.
Lots of happy Newform owners will disagree though.
I’d call it 90-95% blended.

The width of the ‘driven area’ of the VMPS planer I believe is about 2.25" or 2.5" wide. I’m SURE if I’m wrong several VMPS owners will correct me.

This width will make the driver start to beam at about 6.5kHz (which is where waves get smaller than the width of the driver making them and stop imaging outside the speaker).

In the older designs (which you may be looking into) the spiral ribbon tweeter crossed in at ~10kHz.
The new true ribbon supertweeter crosses in at ~7kHz.

There have also been designers commenting about there needing to be a VERY high order x-over between these two drivers since they’re crossing so high.
I’ve never gotten an adequate response to this issue IMO from VMPS.


The freq. response of the Scan Speak woofer and Newform ribbons are both well know to be very flat through the whole range they’re used.

The freq. response of the VMPS drivers is unknown to me though I’ve tried to find out over and over again.

The design of the NR 630 and 645's and the VMPS 626R’s, RM-1 and 2's are all VERY good in many attributes, but also fairly quirky in other respects.


Normally I wouldn’t just offer up a diff. speaker than the ones somone asked about, but owning Newform’s (the 645's are my rear speakers and my 630's are in the bedroom), and having looked into VMPS on my very short list to replace them but decided against it... I thought I’d point out the best of both worlds IMO.

Personally I feel the best of both worlds is a 2-way line array.

GR’s Alpha kit if you can build it beats all of these designs IMO. If you can’t build them it’s still the best design IMO, but not the drop dead deal the kit is, but I’d chose it over the VMPS RM-40's on down. Over the RMX too, but it’s a diff. enough speaker to make that really debatable.

The planar tweeter section of the Alphas has the control of the VMPS planars, but the height of the Newform ribbon, but also covers down to the floor too beating both design ‘right seating height’ quirks of the other two.

The planar line is sealed off from the woofers unlike VMPS (‘cept the X’s) having the advantage of Newform’s sealed ribbon.

It’s 6" woofers sound very much like the 7" Scan Speak 8545's in the Newforms, but having 9 per cabinet they’re astoundingly fast and clearly much better than even dual SS woofers,

IMO very much matching the speed of VMPS using planars in the midrange. ‘Real world’ speaking.. it’s just REALLY fast.

The x-over uses better parts IMO than VMPS and certainly better than Newform. It’s a simple 2-way like Newform though with a cleaner signal path.

Using a similar x-over point as Newform it’s 100% seamless unlike Newfrom which at best is ‘really really close to seamless’ IMO.

Having both woofer and planar line source sections it covers any height floor to standing (unless you’re ~7'+) and doesn’t have the point source to line source quirks Newform does and VMPS sorta does -depending on the model.

They’re higher effi. than either company’s speakers and also far higher power handling so the distortion level is pretty much nil till you hit SPL’s that’d make you deaf anyway.

Bass loading of a long line of woofers loads a room with about as little bass modes as possible.

1.5" MDF walls and full top to bottom, front to back, and side to side bracing along with Black Hole 5 damping sheets and 4 double flared ports per cabinet is better quality than either of the other two brands IMO.

It’s not perfect (nothing is). There’s technically a bit of a roll off in the very top quarter octave. No one who’s heard them and posted has even noticed this or called it an issue as far as I know.
Also the planar’s driver width is a hair too wide. Again only ‘technically’ IMO. It should begin to beam above ~10kHz (the last audible octave), but there’s only rare high harmonics in this range and when nothing else beams at all it doesn’t cause any beaming that I could even notice.

Sorry if that ‘plug’ offends, but I really think if you’re looking at these two companies (just as I had) that the GR Alphas shouldn’t be ignored.

[jgubman]

Just a brief correction of azryan's post:

The neo panels on both my VMPS LRC and RM-40s are sealed in their own compartments, away from the woofer/mid-woofer compartments.

I'm 99% sure the same goes for the 626 & RM-1, RM-2 and RM-30s, but I've never seen the insides of those, so I can't comment.

Sorry, also haven't listened to either the newforms or the GR Alphas (I've heard great things about both though), so I'll just move along.

[NealH]

Newform may have a price advantage over the Magnepan 3.6 but, it falls short of the Maggie 3.6 in the sonics department.  The Maggie is a full dipole and produces a coherent soundstage that is broad, dynamic and rich.  It's true ribbon is especially superb.  When they are driven and set up properly it will sound stunningly real.  

The Newform is also a good speaker and, if you have your heart set on a pair of them, I doubt you will be disatisfied.  I just wish Newform would update their speakers and opt for a full range dipole arrangement.   Magnepans are widely distributed and generally available for audition in many stores.    Be sure to audition a pair, as many times as you need.

[azryan]

Really??

I was told the neos were NOT sealed off in the RM-40's and I've seen pics showing that too -I think. Can't swear to it though.

It seems odd the LRC has a sealed off neo when the 626R's don't.

I WISH it weren't like pulling teeth to find out what the details of VMPS's designs are.
I have only tried to find out the 'way it is' and it's been crazy trying to get real answers.

Is there a chance certain models used to be totally open, but now are not?

I'm VERY sure I was told the 40's neo were open.
I'm not saying you're not telling the truth though.

Maybe the facts could be layed out plain and simple to clear it up.

[jgubman]

Dunno how they used to be, but I've opened mine up (both LRC and RM-40s) and they're sealed.

Zybar left a photo of his RM-40s opened, and you can clearly see they're in a sealed box:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/modules.php?set_albumName=albuo43&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

My RM-40s were purchased around Nov. 2003, don't know anything about the earlier designs, but there's a pretty active thread about replacing the stuffing in the midrange sections from fiberglass -> lambs wool, so everyone posting their observations there must have sealed midrange sections.

[JoshK]

Indeed the RM40's midranges do have their own cabinet.

[azryan]

rnhood,

Newform I doubt will ever change to a dipole design. I believe John M. is very against them.
That's really a whole 'nother debate though IMO.

Neither VMPS nor Newform are dipole, and Maggies aren't woofer planar hybrids. Plus the 3.6's cost WAY more than Newform 630's or 645's.
Really just a totally diff. speaker IMO.

The 3.6's are lower effi. and power handling than the Newform 645's too anyway.

I'm not sure how you could find them more dynamic than the 645's if that's what you're saying.

I've heard the Maggie 1.6's (the next smaller panel model down) and their dynamics were a joke compared to the 630's I owned.

This lead me to then buy the 645's.

Enya sounded overly airy but cool, but Nirvana sounded like a cloud of vocals and the drum kit sounds like a Fisher Price toy.

[azryan]

Sorry about saying the 40's neos are open.
I was told thins by a 40 owner who's been inside his speaker. I guess he lied.

Can we gat an 'official' rundown on sealed or open neos on ALL the current models?
AND if it 'used' to be open if it's now sealed?

I believe I was told the 626R's are open, but I don't want to say something that's not true.

[mcrespo71]

The Maggie is a full dipole and produces a coherent soundstage that is broad, dynamic and rich. It's true ribbon is especially superb. When they are driven and set up properly it will sound stunningly real.

I've spent a LOT of time listening to my Dad's 3.6 and this statement is dead on.  The ribbon tweeter used in the 3.6 and 20.1 is the best I've heard.

Michael

[azryan]

Aren't you guys drifting off this guys topic he asked about?

Maybe you should start a Maggie thread if you're not going to mention anything to do with this thread's topic?

I would actually like to hear what other speakers you've compared to the Maggies, but not here I don't think.

[mcrespo71]

Well, you brought up the comparison between the Newform's and Maggies somewhere on this thread, so I just thought I'd chime in what I think of the Maggies ribbon.  I have not heard the Newforms, so can't comment there.

I'll leave now.

Michael

[dogdog49]

Hello again. I just want to thank Azryan and all the others here who responded so thoughtfully and at such length to my request for information. What a great site! I know there is no substitute for listening, but it's difficult to nigh-on impossible to get real world listening comparisons under similar conditions with brands like these, so everything you  all have to say is very helpful indeed. My seating arrangement is on the low side and would be difficult to change (i now have Harbeth Compact 7's on 19" stands to put them at ear height) so the height issue with the Newforms is a concern. I've heard that some folks mount the ribbon on the side of the cabinet to lower it. Any feedback on the workability of that arrangement? Btw, I love the Harbeths and they are unfailingly musical, but seem lack a degree of transparancy that i crave. I plan to keep them around, though, to compare in my room to whatever i get just to make sure. Anyway, thanks again y'all.

[azryan]

I actually mounted the 30" Newform ribbon to the side of the cabinet when I briefly used the 630's for rear surrounds. I was able to raise the woofer cabinet up on a cement block and then keep the ribbon within seated ear level by putting it on the side of the cabinet.

I never tried it in 'critical' use though. I doubt it'd be 'right'.

I think it'd be better to build a lower cabinet height for the 630's or 645's to make sure you're within the ribbon when seated.

Just make the cabinet a bit deeper to keep the same volume.

This is of course not the same as just buying the speaker though.

Maybe if you said the kinda price/performance you're looking for.

VMPS's line includes speakers cheaper to a lot more costly than the Newform 630 or 645's.

I know Newform makes other designs though (incl. I think John M. is working on a 2-way line source using Scan Speak Revelators and dual 45" ribbons I believe. This should be outstanding and also super costly), but probably 95% of the people online talking about Newform are talking about the 645's which would costwise I 'think' go against the RM-2's

Drastically diff. speakers.

Personally I'd redo that cabinet too. Making the neo panels and supertweeters in their own sepp. Narrow cabinet at just the right ear height to hit about any seated height, and put it on top of a sepp. Subwoofer type cube cabinet for the woofer section.

This idea you might guess came from me looking at my Newforms.

[Stevo]

It's been a couple of  years since owning the Newform R-645 and R-630.  They were very good speakers, especially considering the price point.  But the greatest challenge that was the lack of continuity between the tweeter and the mid-range.  I think they crossed over around 1 Khz or so, and it was clear when listening to the music where the ribbon and woofers crossed, especially in near field listening.

The VMPS RM/X, though not a fair comparison, is much more seamless between the tweeter, mid-range and woofers.  I cannot clearly detect the crossover frequencies with the RM/X setup.

Both speaker brands offer high value, and the unique opportunity to chat with the designer himself (still find that very cool   ) for technical questions.

[azryan]

I don't think it was the x-over point that's the prob. with the blending of the Newforms.

I think it's the way the two drivers output in totally diff. ways.

I agree nearfield is not right for them. John M. also mentions on his site that he was thinking of larger rooms/distances with those models.

Further away the drivers integrate better, but 100% seamless I think is beyond them.

Lots of people who've upgraded their x-over in the 645's have said they felt it became seamless after that though (I think a little 'patting one's self on the back' exagerration IMO).

Currently John M. is very much into ditching the x-over all together and going for dig. x-overs (You nearly halve the amp power you use when you do that too, but the A/D/A steps woory me. A lot of people say it's transparent though).

He also is selling the Pannie XR45 (he's the one who 'discovered' it really), which he doesn't call THE BEST, but seems to think it's a 'Krell killer' as the phrase was.

I own this Pannie and it's great for $300, but not that high end stock.

I'm getting mine modded though and 'hope' it'll kick butt after that. The  technology of the pure digital path at it's core seems like a great idea.

Ok.. I'm drifting. Sorry. I thought it related to getting some more insight into Newform and the designer John M.