Battle of the Tripaths, ZR1000/1600 vs Griffin Powerwave????

Chris_B · « **on:** 4 Apr 2004, 08:04 pm »

Has anyone compared them yet? I have been playing around with the Powerwave and it sounds great, aside from the cheap construction. Based on the PW, I am interested in trying one of the mod'd Carvers. The Carver should sound much better but I was hoping that someone might have already compared them.

I have been comparing the Powerwave to a $2,000 integrated EL34 tube amp in my listening room driving my Green Mountain Audio Europas. While the Powerwave will clip pretty easily when I turn the volume up to very loud levels, it sounds very good at normal volumes. I have been switching cables back and forth and I would have to say that the PW has better bass control than the tube amp and they are about even for that magical presence in the mids. The tube amp is a little smoother but doesn't sound quite as dynamic. It really shows up when listening to drums. At this point, I am seriously considering selling my integrated tube amp and getting a mod'd Carver ZR.

Mathew_M · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Apr 2004, 08:54 pm »

I too hear more magic with the tripath chip than the TI chip in the Panny XR series. Is Carver the only manufacturer besides Sony using these chips?

DSK · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Apr 2004, 11:44 pm »

Chris,
I seem to recall reading that Carver Pro was currently working on an "audiophile" version of the ZR, with some of the unnecessary options removed and decent RCA jacks etc installed. Supposedly there would be fewer compromises to the sound. May be worth waiting for that?

Does anyone have any further info on this?

Cheers,
Darren.

Chris_B · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 12:05 am »

I was told through a contact with Carver Pro that their new home audiophile amps would not be available until after CES in 2005. Additionally, it was not known if the new amps would be tripath based either.

The mod'd amps with RCA inputs and the shortened signal path sounds like the best deal currently short of buying a EVO for a lot more money.

lkosova · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 01:57 am »

Chris,

I don't know if that is true. I think that the Carver home series will be out way before next year. I know that they were talking about this amp after all the crazies here started to mod the 1600. That really took Carver pro by suprise and they started working or at least thinking about a home alternative. I know that Phinox gold had to buy Carver first...which they did.I was told last year that it would be an improvement over the z 1600 and be made for home use. Something tells me that they will take the mods and try to improve them. If my memory is correct that they were not using a tripath chip but something else or newer. I also talked with the tripath people and I think they had a new chip they were working on. Don't quote me on any of this ...just trying to remember.

Larry

audioengr · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 02:21 am »

After speaking with David Garlett, I got the impression that the new consumer amps would not be switching amps, but class-A with microprocessor control. He challenged me to put my modified ZR1600 against his new class-A amp in a shootout. If I can swing it this summer, I will definitely do this. He wants to come out to central OR anyway.

I cannot blame them for changing designs. Making the ZR1600 sound like an audiophile amp has been a challenge for me. Much harder than the typical amp. The biggest problem is the RF emissions and noise in the amp. It is sounding very promising now however. I hope to have it completely dialed-in in a week or so after some final custom parts come in for it.

lkosova · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 02:36 am »

err...this is what I was told also last year..

when's the shootout???

Larry

_scotty_ · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 02:43 am »

audioengner, It looks like Carver is poised to take a great leap sideways. Oh well. Any further word on stripped down version of the ZR series being built.
On another topic was the temperature rise in the aircore output inductors
due to a higher than stock DCR.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 02:49 am »

What a shame. They set out to make a pro amp and accidentally make an audiophile amp. This fills them with the notion that they're design wizards, so they set out to make a real audiophile amp from the ground up totally forgetting the first one was a stroke of lightning, just a total accident!

I sure hope they do make an amp based on the new Tripath at some point. Or else hopefully someone will pick up the ball and run with it. I can't afford a BelCanto, unfortunately.

Chris_B · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 09:41 am »

audioengr - how is the noise in the amp/RF emmissions affecting the sound? Loud hiss at the speakers?

audioengr · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 04:09 pm »

Quote

was the temperature rise in the aircore output inductors
due to a higher than stock DCR?

Yes and no. One of the most promising inductors was 3X the DCR of the original so it was getting too hot to touch. I found a replacement that is actually lower DCR than the original, but it also gets fairly hot. I think I will have to mount a heatsink to it. It seems like anything that sounds good gets hot.

As for the radiation inside, it makes it really hard to get the op-amp signals routed around and the power delivery to them. The result is hiss. I tried a new strategy yesterday which reduced the hiss by 4 dB by changing signal and power routing and eliminating ground-loops. If I was to design this again, I would put all of the op-amps and their power system in a separate isolated cavity in the chassis.

MttBsh · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 04:16 pm »

I guess there must be a major design difference between the ZR1600 and the ZR1000.

I own a ZR1000, and other than a loud fan (which I've replaced) in stock form it is DEAD QUIET. I can assure you, there is ABOLUTELY NO HISS or any audible sign of RF emissions from this amp. Of course, I haven't put mine on a test bench and measured the output signals. But what I hear is what I care about, and without any mods my ZR1000 produces absolute audiophile quality sound, black background, slam, wonderful bass and treble extension, deep and wide soundstage.

Audioengr states "Making the ZR1600 sound like an audiophile amp has been a challenge for me"

Either the ZR1600 and ZR1000 are entirely different animals, or there is some other agenda here.

Matt

_scotty_ · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 05:24 pm »

MttBsh, The sound quality you hear from your stock ZR1000,is good in many areas and excellent in others,but there is always something better out there. Don't make the mistake of thinking it can't get any better than this. It can and it will. The RF radiation differences are easy to explain.
audioenger has had to change power supply routing and grounding in the process of trying to eliminate the unnecessary op-amps present, and the different shaped output inductor is also radiating more RF
than the toroid shaped stock inductor. These amplifiers need to be viewed
as high powered RF transmitters that have an audio frequency impressed on a carrier wave that we subsequently filter out before trying to listen to the audio output. In the case of the ZR1600,on average it will put twice as much power into a 4ohm load as the ZR1000 does. This means that in many cases it will also be radiating twice as much RF inside the chassis
as the ZR1000. If you have been following the other threads discussing
Tripath based products you will have noticed that they are discussing an order of magnitude lower power output amps and the good sound they produce. These amps also have lowered RF emissions because they are smaller amps. My DIY amp is only 110watts into 8 ohms/220watts @4ohms
and the lower power no doubt helped me get a very good result from the time and money invested. audioengr is basically trying to achieve the same sound quality as a Tripath EVAL board based amp in a much higher power form with the handicap of the stock Carver implimentation
of the Tripath technology. He is trying to eliminate all the op-amps, improve on the output inductor and fix the power supply impedance issues in the RF operating region. Not an easy task. Scotty

MttBsh · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 07:26 pm »

Scotty,

I don't believe I have made the mistake of thinking my ZR1000 couldn't be made to sound better. In fact, I know that it could.

My issue is that several people on this board continue to expound the notion that stock, the ZR series are "non-audiophile" amps. In other words, that without mods, they just don't sound very good.

Perhaps we need a better understanding of the what the term "audiophile" means in terms of sound quality. A number of ZR owners have made it clear that they are superb amps in stock form - no, not the very best you can buy, but that for around $700.00 they're probably better than 90% of the amps available today - at any price. In my book, that means that most people out there are going to be blown away by the quality of sound they can get at a price level they can afford - and that the most demanding listeners may choose to go a step further and have the mods done.

If I seem a bit stuck on this point, it's because I enjoy the amp so much, and don't want other potential ZR owners to think the amp - in stock form - isn't an excellent choice. It is.

Matt

RussKon · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 10:32 pm »

Quote from: MttBsh

Scotty,

I don't believe I have made the mistake of thinking my ZR1000 couldn't be made to sound better. In fact, I know that it could.

My issue is that several people on this board continue to expound the notion that stock, the ZR series are "non-audiophile" amps. In other words, that without mods, they just don't sound very good.

Perhaps we need a better understanding of the what the term "audiophile" means in terms of sound quality. A number of ZR owners have made it clear that they are superb ...

matt,

i agree totally!!!!

JCC · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Apr 2004, 02:22 am »

Your right on! The ZR series are outstanding out of the box. They best many audiophile grade amps. Look at those on this forum using ZR's with VMPS speakers. I wonder why?

They can be improved, and the 8th Nerve modification is the one proven example. Out of the box with a quiet fan they are giant killers. Not the very best, but still outstanding. The price / performance of the ZR series might be the best.

The modders are learning and experimenting. The comments on AudioCircle point to this.

audioengr · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Apr 2004, 06:32 pm »

Quote

Audioengr states "Making the ZR1600 sound like an audiophile amp has been a challenge for me"

Either the ZR1600 and ZR1000 are entirely different animals, or there is some other agenda here.

No agenda. My standards for "audiophile quality" are just a bit higher. I already have modded amps that crush the stock ZR1600, so my goal is to make it sound as good as these references. It is already very close with the current mods. Even my wife noticed how good it sounds and she is very critical. Additional mods should bring it up to these reference standards.

As for hiss, I have removed the last stage of filtering, so this probably accounts for it. I will add this back in if it does not corrupt the sound quality. You cannot hear the hiss unless you put your ear right up to the tweeter now. It is a fairly typical level for all amps now.

Chris_B · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Apr 2004, 08:41 pm »

Audioengr - how was the hiss from the stock amp?

MttBsh · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Apr 2004, 08:53 pm »

Audioengr:

Thank you for the clarification. You use of the term "audiophile quality" as a reference for the "best of the best". It's nice to know that you feel the ZR series have the potential to meet that standard. My point was that even without mods, they are better than almost anything else out there.

Thanks for sharing the results of your testing.

Matt

audioengr · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Apr 2004, 10:33 pm »

Chris-B - the hiss from the stock 1600 amp was more than my reference amps.