[S Clark]

Currently, I am using a couple of used Cambridge 640Ps in my first return to vinyl, but have decided to look into the next step up.  Now to be clear and upfront- I'm cheap.  I have under $200 in both the Cambridge units.  What do I need to look for in the next clear step up? I'd like to spend as little as $500 or no more than $750 for a use unit?  I need both MM and MC.
Graham Slee- Creek-???

Scott

[sunnydaze]

Jasmine Audio LP 2.0 "SE". 

http://www.jasmineaudio.net/lp2.html

It is excellent.  MM and MC, with five adjustable load settings

Vista Audio ACLE Phono-1. 

http://vista-audio.com/products.htm

Excellent sound right up there with the Jasmine, but not adjustable.   Must be ordered w desired load and gain specs.

I own both these units, and have owned and heard many others -- both tubed and SS.  Despite being SS, you would never know by listening.  Both present an organic and musical performance, and are over-achievers that perform beyond their price points, making them great value.  I wholeheartedly rec them w/o hesitation.  They are both w/in your budget.

My setup:
Townshend Rock 3 table
Kuzma Stogi Reference arm
various cartridges:  Denon, Shelter, Benz, Dynavector, Clearaudio

[etcarroll]

+1 on the Jasmine.

Like you, a recent returnee to vinyl, had a cheap phono-pre that supported MC, and was about to buy a Jasmine after hearing another members, but then connected with another AC member and bought his EAR 834P for less than $200 more than the Jasmine would have cost me. And I'm also cheap.

[S Clark]

I'll start looking for a used Jasmine, but it may take a while to find.  In the meantime, the little Cambridge will have to do. The Vista looks like a great deal, but I'm too vinyl ignorant to know what the "load and gain" specs are for my two tables.  I have a JVC QL-F6 that John TCG has raved about with an ADC XLM MKII, and a friend has long term loaned me his Technics SP-10MkII with a cartridge that simply says Signet.  Where do I find load and gain info?

Scott

[sunnydaze]

I'll start looking for a used Jasmine, but it may take a while to find.  In the meantime, the little Cambridge will have to do. The Vista looks like a great deal, but I'm too vinyl ignorant to know what the "load and gain" specs are for my two tables.  I have a JVC QL-F6 that John TCG has raved about with an ADC XLM MKII, and a friend has long term loaned me his Technics SP-10MkII with a cartridge that simply says Signet.  Where do I find load and gain info?

Scott

GAIN and LOAD have nothing to do with your turntable.  They are parameters for the phono stage, and your cartridge determines required levels.  Cartridge has a certain output, and that will determine how much phono stage "gain" is needed to amplify the signal properly.  It will also have a certain "load" that it needs to see in the phono section.

You can buy a new Jasmine on EBay direct from China for less than $580 shipped.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jasmine-LP2-0MKII-Phono-Preamplifier-Phono-stage-/230616350563?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b1ce3f63

A few months ago I saw a used one on AG sell for more than that.  Don't ask me why....makes absolutely no sense!          

[orientalexpress]

i recomemded Vista audio also,that little thing Rock.


Lapsan

[BaMorin]

Currently, I am using a couple of used Cambridge 640Ps in my first return to vinyl, but have decided to look into the next step up.  Now to be clear and upfront- I'm cheap.  I have under $200 in both the Cambridge units.  What do I need to look for in the next clear step up? I'd like to spend as little as $500 or no more than $750 for a use unit?  I need both MM and MC.
Graham Slee- Creek-???

Scott

get two..............1 DB-8 for MM, and 1 DB-8HG for MC.
The two will fall well within your budget for new phono stages.
DB-8 has 37db gain The 8HG has 52db gain. Both track RIAA to 0.04db, 0.002% distortion, 150ohm output impedance.

DBsystemsaudio.com

Not much of a site to look at. David Hadaway puts everything into product instead of advertizing, glitz and glamour.

[woodsyi]

get two..............1 DB-8 for MM, and 1 DB-8HG for MC.
The two will fall well within your budget for new phono stages.
DB-8 has 37db gain The 8HG has 52db gain. Both track RIAA to 0.04db, 0.002% distortion, 150ohm output impedance.

DBsystemsaudio.com

Not much of a site to look at. David Hadaway puts everything into product instead of advertizing, glitz and glamour.

I don't get why you pay for the same thing (RIAA EQ) twice.  Shouldn't there be just the High Gain (SUT?) to be added to the MM stage?  Or does DB8 HG have an active gain stage that can't be separated?

[woodsyi]

I'll start looking for a used Jasmine, but it may take a while to find.  In the meantime, the little Cambridge will have to do. The Vista looks like a great deal, but I'm too vinyl ignorant to know what the "load and gain" specs are for my two tables.  I have a JVC QL-F6 that John TCG has raved about with an ADC XLM MKII, and a friend has long term loaned me his Technics SP-10MkII with a cartridge that simply says Signet.  Where do I find load and gain info?

Scott

I believe both are MM carts.  As such you will pretty much have fixed 47k ohms loading for any standard MM phono stage.  You have to worry about loading a lot more when you go MC.

[woodsyi]

BTW, Jasmine Audio LP 2.0 "SE" showed it's true colors with my MC carts only after we bypassed the built in SUT.  It wasn't pretty until we put in a S&B SUT.  Then it showed what a good phono stage it is.  I wouldn't use the MC part of Jasmine but YMMV.

[jimdgoulding]

I'll start looking for a used Jasmine, but it may take a while to find.  In the meantime, the little Cambridge will have to do. The Vista looks like a great deal, but I'm too vinyl ignorant to know what the "load and gain" specs are for my two tables.  I have a JVC QL-F6 that John TCG has raved about with an ADC XLM MKII, and a friend has long term loaned me his Technics SP-10MkII with a cartridge that simply says Signet.  Where do I find load and gain info?

Scott

If I remember right , the Signet was a flagship Audio-Technica back in the 80's.  I had one before I flipped to moving coils and remember it to be excellent.

[dlaloum]

I would suggest something with flexibility....

By that what I mean is, it should have the gain adjustability required for MM & MC but also the loading adjustability to optimise whatever cartridges you opt for....

To meet this requirement...:

Resistive loads need to include a range of adjustments in the MC range (10 to 5000 ohm) and a range of adjustments in the MM range (10k to 100k ohm)
A high R load value is important as you can always lower  R loading using splitters and loading plugs but you can never raise it beyond the base value.

Capacitive loads should be 0pf, 100pf, 250pf or thereabouts - the 0pf one is the most important as you can always add external capacitance but you cannot delete capacitance.

Options include:

Phonomena Phono stages (very adjustable via dip switches) - price range seems about right
JLTI Phono (has loading plugs at the rear - you can make up whatever plugs you want - infinite adjustability, but you need to custom order it with a high internal R load and no C load - I ordered mine that way with 500k ohm internal base load) - this is above your proposed price point.
Firestone Audio Korora - lots of adjustability, great price, and a spot for an optional high R load (so you can then use external loading plugs for infinite adjustability) - lowest price option I know of with these features.

DIY Phono stage - if you are up to handling a soldering iron, you can reputedly get top notch results for  the cost of parts - and simply build in the adjustability desired.... (I am not, and opted for the JLTI)


It is very hard to find a phono stage that is both reasonably priced and has this type of adjustability! - the above ended up being my shortlist...

Reason for needing adjustability :

Although all manufacturers spec their High Output cartridges at 47k ohm load and between 250 and 400pf C load - every cartridge has its own sweet spot...
For example: the Shure M97xE is apparently at its best around 62k Ohm, where the Audio Technica AT440MLa is at its best around 32k ohm. Lots of people say the Grado's are best at around 15k to 20k Ohm. - These are all theoretically 47k ohm cartridges.

It is worth noting that the loading differences will usually make a greater difference than an upgrade of phono stage without loading variation.... this is a BIG DEAL.... differences with some cartridges can be dramatic.

Also worthy of note - those Phono stages that have this type of adjustability, are all considered high value/performance options....

The same situation applies in MC land apparently (within their own respective adjustment zone) - but so far I have not meandered down into Low Output cartridges much..... (I have one LOMC still to come out of its box for try outs...)

bye for now

David

[BobRex]

Jim is correct, Signet was AT's "prestige" line.  Most of them were MMs, but there was one MC.  What color is the Signet?  If it has a silver body with a dark grey / black stylus assembly, then it's an MM.  If it is black and doesn't appear to have a removeable stylus, it the MC.

The MM was designed for a "normal" phono input, so 47K for the load, and I beleive 2.5 millivolts for the output.  The ADC is roughly the same - output might be off a little.  The MC (from what I remember) likes around 100 ohms, I don't remember the actual output, but I think it was in the middle range.

[S Clark]

I believe both are MM carts.  As such you will pretty much have fixed 47k ohms loading for any standard MM phono stage.  You have to worry about loading a lot more when you go MC.

I think that the Signet is a MC cartridge, at least, it plays best at seemingly normal volumes when the Cambridge pre is on the MC setting.  And the body of the cartridge is black.

Scott

[woodsyi]

I think that the Signet is a MC cartridge, at least, it plays best at seemingly normal volumes when the Cambridge pre is on the MC setting.  And the body of the cartridge is black.

Scott

In that case, ask Gene to ship you the Vista Audio ACLE phono-1 if you are interested in trying it.  It's a MC unit with loading set at 100 Ohms.  I was a beta-tester and kept the unit which is with etcarroll right now.  No strings attached. 

[sunnydaze]

BTW, Jasmine Audio LP 2.0 "SE" showed it's true colors with my MC carts only after we bypassed the built in SUT.  It wasn't pretty until we put in a S&B SUT.  Then it showed what a good phono stage it is.  I wouldn't use the MC part of Jasmine but YMMV.

The MC section of my Jasmine sounds just fine w my MC cart.  Local AC member Gopher / Fred (also owns the Jasmine) researched things and was receiving reports that the Jasmine is significantly better w outboard SUT for LOMC.  So he got one, and brought it over here recently for a listen.  Mt time with it was brief,  but I gotta say I heard no real improvement at all.  And if there was one, it certainly was not significant.

I'm not saying that adding an SUT to Jasmine will not improve things.  I don't have enough experience w it and various SUT to say that.  But I am saying that the MC section of the Jasmine is certainly no dog, and I'd definitely not characterize it as "not pretty" -- which suggests that it is obviously off and unlistenable.  Definitely not true over here, -- by my ears and by the ears of the many seasoned hobbyists who enjoy listening to it in my system.

[woodsyi]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  It wasn't pretty for me in my set up.  The difference was significant but, again, YMMV (greatly).

See an informal phono stage comparison.

[dlaloum]

Jim is correct, Signet was AT's "prestige" line.  Most of them were MMs, but there was one MC.  What color is the Signet?  If it has a silver body with a dark grey / black stylus assembly, then it's an MM.  If it is black and doesn't appear to have a removeable stylus, it the MC.

The MM was designed for a "normal" phono input, so 47K for the load, and I beleive 2.5 millivolts for the output.  The ADC is roughly the same - output might be off a little.  The MC (from what I remember) likes around 100 ohms, I don't remember the actual output, but I think it was in the middle range.

The Signet TK9/10's are the Signet version of the Audio Technica AT21/22/23/24/25/26 series....

The exchangeable styli screw in - so do not look obviously "removeable" - and the body is black.

The two Signets I have (TK4ep, TK6ep) are the p-mount members of the family and have very similar performance to the equivalent AT cartridges (AT142/152) - primarily dependent on the Stylus used with them. I have tested them with an AT440MLa stylus, and the result is that they give best results with loading at 32k - same as with the AT440MLa.

With any cartridge the stylus is the prime determinant - not the cartridge. So fitting a 440MLa cartridge to a Signet TK6Ep results in a slightly more refined 440MLa sound - optimum loading is the same. (loading balances out the stylus/cantilever mechanical resonance for a flat or flatish frequency response) - The two signets I have are white/cream bodies.
The later Signet Hitech (I think that was its name) series had black bodies.
The Signet TK7 I have has a gold body. (and shares styli with the AT13/14/15/20 series).

All High Output cartridges other than CD-4 specialised ones, are specified for 47k ohm loads - this does NOT mean they perform best at that load... (I cannot repeat this too often!!!!) - it is just the industry standard - so they are all specced that way because most phono stages have no other options. But if you have the ability and the time to optimise, almost all these cartridges can be tweaked with loading.

100ohm is the MC equivalent of the MM 47kohm  - so they are mostly all specced at 100ohm.
The standard recomendation for MC's is to match the internal resistance of the cartridge - so if coil resistance is 30ohm (like my Ortofon MC200) the starting point for loading would be 30ohm (and then adjust up and down to see if improvements can be gained).

If you post some pics of the Signet - we may be able to help identify it....

bye for now

David

[etcarroll]

In that case, ask Gene to ship you the Vista Audio ACLE phono-1 if you are interested in trying it.  It's a MC unit with loading set at 100 Ohms.  I was a beta-tester and kept the unit which is with etcarroll right now.  No strings attached.

Get me the address and the VISTA will be on the way - it's a nice unit, small in size but don't let that fool you, it does a nice job. I ran it a few weeks between my original TEC 760 and arrival of the EAR 834P, was very pleased with the VISTA.

Also, the Jasmine auditioned at Woodsyi's had 'synergy' issues, I went to it's owners home 2 weekends later to hear it, a vast improvement in SQ.

[DaveyW]

I wish I had a wider exposure to Phonostages than I do.
The recs given here are regulars when this topic crops up, especially the Jasmine.

From my side I spent quite a bit of time with the Dynavector P75, Trichord Dino and Pro-ject Phonobox SE II (all generally highly regarded over here), plus a range of SUT's.
I ended up with the Proj-ect.

I just found it offered a slightly more open and detailed presentation, especially with LOMC's.
I think there's some recorded clips with each of these phono stages on my website with a AT-OC9-MLII.

Good luck in your quest Scott - Look forward to hearing where you end up.
Cheers
Dave