USB Cables

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Osadu

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USB Cables
« on: 15 May 2011, 03:08 am »
Are USB cables costing several hundreds of dollars worth the money as far as audiophile grade music reproduction is concerned?

skunark

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Re: USB Cables
« Reply #1 on: 15 May 2011, 04:31 am »
Generally there's no benefit using an expensive usb cables since the BDP uses USB bulk transfers to move data.  Unlike a USB DAC, which uses isochronous transfers, bulk transfers enable error detection and correction along with actually logging failures.

Furthermore, these failures would cause the OS to mount the drive as read-only or completely unmounted from the BDP altogether, either way this will alert the user of an issue.  Also, the USB Bulk transfer are not jitter sensitive like the isochronous transfers employed by the USB DACs where sadly many report USB cables do make a difference.  Since the BDP uses a much more reliable mechanism to transfer data, the cable provided is more than adequate.

That doesn't mean you won't get any benefit from using a longer or shorter, or a different cable, just unlikely to be any audible improvement.   I do not like to stack components but prefer to have them on shelfs at least 3" of air between component and shelf above, for mobile external disk drives that are bus powered, you will have use purchase a longer cable.


(Now, I give it 30 minutes from my post for someone to say the complete opposite...  1. 2. 3. Go Werd :) )


werd

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #2 on: 15 May 2011, 06:03 am »
I'll entertain this  :)

There is no free lunch in digital playback .... everything gets amplified. So there are differences between usb cables. At the very least,  significant differences between generic printer style usb cables and ones that are considered to be of higher quality like a belkin.

You will always hear people yammer off all the theoretical reasons why data transfered by usb should not sound different. Well it does since your are not transfering data under normal conditions. The data transfered is immediately being amplified in a sound system.

If you are using decent gear with treated AC you will hear every thing you do in front of that amp and that includes swapping out usb cables.

Osadu

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Re: USB Cables
« Reply #3 on: 15 May 2011, 01:26 pm »
Thanks Skunark and Werd.  It sounds like both of you guys are very well educated in electrical engineering.  Without breaking the bank, could you guys recommend an absolute audiophile grade USB cable I can connect between my 500 gigabyte Seagate external hard drive and the BDP-1?  Suggestions from other readers are welcome. Thanks.

werd

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #4 on: 15 May 2011, 07:44 pm »
Thanks Skunark and Werd.  It sounds like both of you guys are very well educated in electrical engineering.  Without breaking the bank, could you guys recommend an absolute audiophile grade USB cable I can connect between my 500 gigabyte Seagate external hard drive and the BDP-1?  Suggestions from other readers are welcome. Thanks.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cabldgtl&1307915404&/Wireworld-Ultraviolet-USB-1m-f

You can spend more but this will point in you the right direction and should save you from a noisy metallic sound that generic junk gets you.

werd

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #5 on: 15 May 2011, 08:32 pm »
Thanks Skunark and Werd.  It sounds like both of you guys are very well educated in electrical engineering.  Without breaking the bank, could you guys recommend an absolute audiophile grade USB cable I can connect between my 500 gigabyte Seagate external hard drive and the BDP-1?  Suggestions from other readers are welcome. Thanks.

Can't speak for Skunark but i am not an EE.

skunark

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Re: USB Cables
« Reply #6 on: 16 May 2011, 12:43 am »
EE by day

jjc1

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #7 on: 16 May 2011, 05:20 pm »
Thanks Skunark and Werd.  It sounds like both of you guys are very well educated in electrical engineering.  Without breaking the bank, could you guys recommend an absolute audiophile grade USB cable I can connect between my 500 gigabyte Seagate external hard drive and the BDP-1?  Suggestions from other readers are welcome. Thanks.
Does your Seagate have a 3.0 USB cable? I have a 750g Seagate 3.0 Go Flex. I had my dealer get me an upgraded Kimber USB cable and it turned out that the connections don't fit. It  looks like audiophile cable manufacturers haven't addressed USB 3.0 yet. Does anyone out there know of any manufacturers that offer this type of USB cable?

BrysTony

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #8 on: 16 May 2011, 06:18 pm »
Does your Seagate have a 3.0 USB cable? I have a 750g Seagate 3.0 Go Flex. I had my dealer get me an upgraded Kimber USB cable and it turned out that the connections don't fit. It  looks like audiophile cable manufacturers haven't addressed USB 3.0 yet. Does anyone out there know of any manufacturers that offer this type of USB cable?

I have an OCZ Enyo SSD that is USB 3.0.  I have the same issue since it requires a USB 3.0 Micro B connector for the drive.  I am currently using a $15 Made in China cable that is satisfactory but I want to try something better.  Back in January I contacted 3 manufacturers to see what was on the horizon.  Nordost said that they would have one out in the next few months.  Cardas said yes but not soon -- maybe for CES 2012.  Kimber said no plans due to the audio industry not yet adopting USB 3.0 standard.  I periodically search for audiophile USB 3.0 cables but have had no success yet.

Tony

jjc1

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #9 on: 16 May 2011, 07:31 pm »
I have an OCZ Enyo SSD that is USB 3.0.  I have the same issue since it requires a USB 3.0 Micro B connector for the drive.  I am currently using a $15 Made in China cable that is satisfactory but I want to try something better.  Back in January I contacted 3 manufacturers to see what was on the horizon.  Nordost said that they would have one out in the next few months.  Cardas said yes but not soon -- maybe for CES 2012.  Kimber said no plans due to the audio industry not yet adopting USB 3.0 standard.  I periodically search for audiophile USB 3.0 cables but have had no success yet.

Tony
Thanks Tony. If you do come across any, please post it. I'll do the same.

BrysTony

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #10 on: 16 May 2011, 07:36 pm »
Thanks Tony. If you do come across any, please post it. I'll do the same.

Will do.

terrycym

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #11 on: 16 May 2011, 07:37 pm »
Other than looking prettier and costing more, does it honestly make a difference?

srb

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #12 on: 16 May 2011, 07:53 pm »
Other than looking prettier and costing more, does it honestly make a difference?

No.
 
Steve

BrysTony

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #13 on: 16 May 2011, 08:52 pm »
Other than looking prettier and costing more, does it honestly make a difference?

Some think it makes a difference; some think not.  I don't know and I reserve judgment until such time as I can get the prettier, more costly one and listen to it.

Tony

werd

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #14 on: 16 May 2011, 08:52 pm »
Other than looking prettier and costing more, does it honestly make a difference?

Yes but be realistic. If you are using a receiver that chokes out the resolution capability of being able to hear differences then no. You won't hear much of difrerence with any cables including USB. So if some people are saying yes and some are saying no then just look at their systems. This will tell you what their systems are even capable of resolving and will help explain their answers.

terrycym

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #15 on: 17 May 2011, 02:16 pm »
Widening the discussion a bit.
Has anybody found different mains leads making a difference to sound quality?

won ton on

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Re: USB Cables
« Reply #16 on: 17 May 2011, 08:10 pm »
yes i have. i'm useing furutech power cords.bass seems tighter and there is more ambiance around the instruments.by the way anyone know of an upgrade for the power cord between the bp-26 and the power supply

skunark

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Re: USB Cables
« Reply #17 on: 17 May 2011, 08:11 pm »
Another way to explain this....

With a CD transport and a DAC, the birth of the PCM audio stream starts when the data is lifted off the disc.  With the BDP the birth of the PCM audio stream is right after the point when the software writes this data to the sound card buffer.   From that point on the data streams share common issues like jitter, noise, etc, which cables have been known to influence.     

The accuracy of the cd transport to read this data on CD is on the same playing field of how well the BDP's open-source MPD software (and libraries) can convert the file to a PCM stream and constantly write that data to the buffer without any underflow.   As an example issues with a CD can be scratches, disc rot, unbalanced or misaligned hole, and all easily detectable and it's really not unlike vinyl.    For the BDP, like any computer based player, issues can be CPU load, IO load, drive faults, memory faults, etc., so a USB cable between BDP and HDD won't amplify the signal when it's transferred as it's still just a file.  It's no different than the mechanism used to copy the file there to begin with. 

Like i said before, that doesn't mean you won't benefit having a longer vs shorter usb cable, hdd vs ssd, or using a bus-powered mobile drive vs a wall-wart desktop drive.    Component isolation, audible HDD noise, or a switching power supply will play a much greater role than which brand of USB cable I use with my HDD.


werd

Re: USB Cables
« Reply #18 on: 17 May 2011, 08:25 pm »
Widening the discussion a bit.
Has anybody found different mains leads making a difference to sound quality?

Yes they are the foundation in developing a cable strategy. The first cable you should change is the mains lead into your cdp or dac using digital. If you are looking to start somewhere, even over speaker, signal and other mains change that cable first.

Sasha

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Re: USB Cables
« Reply #19 on: 18 May 2011, 04:51 pm »
I agree entirely on all the points made by skunark, for both USB cable used on DAC and on BDP. There is no magic, it is all very clear where USB cables could and do have an influence, as well as what the jitter sources are in PC based transports.