[Teddy KGB]

Greetings!

Apologies if this isn't the best place for this question, but I just receved a gift last night from family in the form of a pair of vintage "Jim Lansing Signature" speakers. I opened them up, and they contained 'D130s', '075' ring radiators, and '2600' crossovers. (The '030' configuration?)

I've scoured google/audioheritage.org, and--best I can tell--these are likely from the late '50s. The cabinets, as you'll see from the pics--are ginormous! (note the ruler in the pics--approx. 26" "tall" by 36" wide) Some interesting observations: The ports are in different locations in each cabinet. Also, the tweeter is in the upper right corner on each, instead of in a mirrored fashion.

I hooked them up to my vintage Denon PMA-501 last night and they sound--for their age--miraculous! But I'd love to know more about them--does anyone have any direct experience with this family of speakers? Also, I feel like they'd be well-served by bypassing the original crossovers (while preserving them in their original state) and installing an updated crossover network on the back (the bottoms and backs are unfinished, and I'm gathering these may have had feet at one point...). Any drawbacks to this?

Any insight/personal experiences would be appreciated...

[Bob in St. Louis]

Welcome to the STL section of AudioCircle Teddy. 
Your first post has been approved.

Bob

[eclein]

I've never seen those myself but they look like "New", I wouldn't do anything to alter them until you find out for sure what model they are they are. There are some guys on AVS in the "Speakers-JBL Owners" thread that might know,
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=866797&page=379
go to the above spot and post there and you might get some good input from those guys. There was a gentleman "Zilch" who recently passed away who could tell you with a glance at them exactly what you have there but those guys might be of help and a couple guys here might chime in.......enjoy!!! and welcome to AC!!!

[Bob in St. Louis]

Thanks Ed. I thought of you as soon as I read Teddy's post. 

Bob

[Teddy KGB]

I've never seen those myself but they look like "New", I wouldn't do anything to alter them until you find out for sure what model they are they are. There are some guys on AVS in the "Speakers-JBL Owners" thread that might know,
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=866797&page=379
go to the above spot and post there and you might get some good input from those guys. There was a gentleman "Zilch" who recently passed away who could tell you with a glance at them exactly what you have there but those guys might be of help and a couple guys here might chime in.......enjoy!!! and welcome to AC!!!

Thank you for this--and for laying out the welcome mat for me!

Further research has me believing these are possibly cabinet model C37 'Lo Boys.'. But I'm still curious about the speaker layout, etc. Also, the "Signature" logo I took the pic of was only on one of the cabs--strange...

I'll head over and pick the brains of the "JBL guys."

Thanks again.

[Scott F.]

Teddy,

Welcome to GAS 

you mentioned that your scoured the Lansing heritage site. I'd suggest that you register and make a post on their forum. Between Steve Shell and Don McRitchie (and some of the other contributors), they have a wealth of knowledge and should be able to help.

This is just me guessing, since the ports are in different locations in each cabinet, you've probably got an early and late production pair of speakers. That would also explain the logo on one and not the other.

One way to double check is each of the drivers and crossovers have a serial number on the nameplate. Make note of those and place them in your post over at the Heritage forum. Those guys should be able to date the drivers and confirm what I suspect. Be sure to post pics too.

Now you just need a good sounding Single Ended Triode amp and turntable to mate to them and you'll be set! An 8 watt 300b should drive the snot out of those things 


...oh, just some previous experience with vintage 15" woofers, those drivers in those cabinets perform considerably better if you add (say) 2 - 2.5# of fiberfil. After adding the fill you can retrofit a traditional port and tune it around 40Hz to create an EBS (extended bass shelf) alignment for the woofer. The bass reproduction will get considerably better and will go a bit deeper.

[KenSeger]

While the inductor coils of a crossover generally don't age, unless the insulation on the wire breaks down and shorts out, the capacitors are another story.  Typical crossover capacitors should be replaced every decade or so.  The oil bath type capacitors found in some of the better units in the days of old were supposed to be good for decades.  But if these are from the 50's, well, even oil bath caps that old are probably no longer self healing at this point.

If your crossover is 6 db/oct (highly doubtful) the unit has a cap in series with the tweeter and a coil in series with the woofer, so you haven't heard what the tweeter really sounds like, but the woofer should be fine.  More likely you have a 12 db/octave or 18 db/oct x-over with multiple elements on each leg of the circuit with the old caps degrading the performance of both the tweeter and the woofer. The good news is that new and better caps are cheap and usually smaller than the originals and will fit nicely inside the crossover box.

Ken

P.S. Usually the capacitor just gets lossy and leaky, but doesn't short out (with full bass going into the tweeter and smoke coming out), but just in case, don't see how loud they can get until the caps are replaced.  Putting in caps of higher voltage capacity is fine, just don't go lower.  Parts Express has a nice selection of caps.

[KenSeger]

Hey look what I found.

http://www.hifilit.com/hifilit/JBL/1956-2.jpg

http://www.hifilit.com/hifilit/JBL/1956-5.jpg

http://www.hifilit.com/hifilit/JBL/No34-2.jpg

So your N2400 x-over is probably like the N2500 and 12db/octave, maybe for a different ohmage?  So your old caps are screwing up the sound of both the tweeter and the woofer.  What are the ohmages of the tweeter and woofer?
Ken

[BPoletti]

The D130 was a very good wide range driver, 8 - 16 ohm, around 101 - 103dB efficient.  It was also often used in Fender guitar amps (Showman) and had a 12" version, the D131 which was an option in Fender Twin Reverb and Showman amps.  The Fender speakers were designated D130F and D131F respectively.  They were the absolute top-of-the-line musical instrument speakers.  There was also a D140F that was a bass guitar speaker but built on a different basket, had a different VC, lower Fs and twice the Xmax.  There was also a JBL 10" musical instrument speaker (can't remember the designation, maybe D110F?) that was available as an option in Fender Super Reverb amps.  But these two drivers were only distant cousins to the D130F and D131F.  My understanding is that there was no difference between the "F" series drivers and the hi-fi drivers.

When used in hi-fi systems, it was typically with an O75 as in the case or your speaker.  The system is quite nice for it's vintage, though I always liked the performance of the JBL 15" drivers in horns.  There is a particular horn design, the Harkness (no, NOT the Hartley) that was a top performer with the D130 and O75.  Plans were available for the DIYer. 

It is important to replace the caps in the crossover.  The old ones are not doubt old electrolytic caps or wax caps.  These break down over time and either lose their effectiveness or short out. With the availability of Solen caps, replacement should be fairly simple.  Just use the same value as the originals. 

The D130 driver is in high demand from the musical instrument gang.  It has a wide frequency range, a lot of dynamic punch and is very efficient so can be used with the sweet-sounding low power tube guitar amps. 

[macrojack]

It is probable that the original speaker was purchased for mono and later a duplicate was built when stereo came along. I bought a pair of Klipschorns many years ago that came to me with that as an explanation as to why they weren't an exact match. If that is true of yours, it would explain why one has the factory mark and the other doesn't.

[BPoletti]

It is probable that the original speaker was purchased for mono and later a duplicate was built when stereo came along. I bought a pair of Klipschorns many years ago that came to me with that as an explanation as to why they weren't an exact match. If that is true of yours, it would explain why one has the factory mark and the other doesn't.

That's a good point.  IIRC, these speakers predate stereo.

[Mitsuman]

That's a good point.  IIRC, these speakers predate stereo.

  From the JBLpro.com site:

Lansing soon developed a series of components enabling him to put together a virtual copy of the original Iconic system. These included
a fifteen-inch theater-type woofer, a high-frequency driver, and a small multicellular horn. The driver, known as the D175, is still in the
JBL catalog today. Lansing pioneered the use of four-inch voice coils for low-frequency transducers, and the D130 was the first loudspeaker
to incorporate this. The D130 was developed in 1947 and with it the D101 was discontinued. The development of Alnico V material during
the war years is what made the new design possible. Working with Robert Arnold of the Arnold Engineering Company in Chicago, Lansing
was able to procure a magnet of reasonable size that could saturate a four-inch diameter gap with a field strength of about 12,000 gauss.
Such a gap obviously had to be quite small, and the relatively large four-inch voice coil had to be built with a degree of precision that had
been unknown in the industry. Other products designed by Lansing during the same time were the twelve-inch D131 and eight-inch D208.

[macrojack]

Such a gap obviously had to be quite small, and the relatively large four-inch voice coil had to be built with a degree of precision that had
been unknown in the industry.............

                        ___________________________________

I think that is what led them to the aluminum edge wound voice coil.

[Teddy KGB]

Hey look what I found.

http://www.hifilit.com/hifilit/JBL/1956-2.jpg

http://www.hifilit.com/hifilit/JBL/1956-5.jpg

http://www.hifilit.com/hifilit/JBL/No34-2.jpg

So your N2400 x-over is probably like the N2500 and 12db/octave, maybe for a different ohmage?  So your old caps are screwing up the sound of both the tweeter and the woofer.  What are the ohmages of the tweeter and woofer?
Ken

Thanks so much for all your insight. I've decided I'm going to do absolutely nothing to these at this point--at least until I have a firm grasp on what I'm dealing with, and can feel supremely confident I won't ruin these gems by trying to "improve/reinvigorate" them. But new crossover components and some fiberfill are likely first steps when the time comes.

Another clue that supports the "different production runs" theory is the fact that one of the cabinet backs is varnished particle board, and the other is painted black. The bottoms are also slightly different. I'm reluctant to keep opening these up b/c I don't wanna jar something loose, so I'll try to pfutz with the images I already have to see if I can make out the ssns. (BTW: The woofer was an 8-ohm. I don't remember the tweeter's impedance.)

Thanks again to all. And, if you're ever in South City, stop by and hear them. They've totally changed my perception of what was considered "hifi" in the late 50s/early 60s. Total game changers, imo.

Brian

[BPoletti]

Brian,

If the speakers are operated without replacing the capacitors, there is a risk that there could be enough low frequency leak into the tweeter to do some serious damage.  It might not be worth the risk to run them without replacing the caps. 

Bill

[Teddy KGB]

Brian,

If the speakers are operated without replacing the capacitors, there is a risk that there could be enough low frequency leak into the tweeter to do some serious damage.  It might not be worth the risk to run them without replacing the caps. 

Bill

Understood. Thank you for the head's up. I'll resist temptation to play them until I can address this...

Brian

[BPoletti]

Where abouts in South City?

[Teddy KGB]

Where abouts in South City?

Near Macklind and Loughborough. Nice quiet little neighborhood... Any other city-dwelling GAS'ers?

B

[daves]

Ted, looks like you may have picked up a nice C37 setup. They are quite nice, and will quickly get extremely loud. I have more then a few of the C series here in south county. The bullet tweeters are more than a little bright and overbearing, so I hold the view that loosing a few dB due to the aged crossovers may actually be a good thing, taming some of the shrill biting high.

I have run nine of ours with no problem with original crossovers installed, but if you have concern, fall to the safe side.

Adding more fibrefill is not necessarily a good idea, as these cabinets were built without T/S parameters, and are a little small. The C40 is the first cabinet to get closer to optimal size for the D130.

[Teddy KGB]

Ted, looks like you may have picked up a combo c36/c38 setup. They are quite nice, and will quickly get extremely loud. I have more then a few of the C series here in south county. The bullet tweeters are more than a little bright and overbearing, so I hold the view that loosing a few dB due to the aged crossovers may actually be a good thing, taming some of the shrill biting high.

I'd come to believe I had an 030 setup in a C37 cabinet, but that's purely deductive reasoning/process of elimination. I could be waaaay off.

And yes, that ring radiators can get a little 'bright,' but a slight tweak of the attenuator on the crossover brings 'em under control nicely. Truthfully, with the exception of a little tone "darkness" on male vocals, and the challenge of finding the sweet spot with the driver layout, they really sound phenomenal. I'm literlly 'honored' to have them.

B