Do you toe in? (and why?)

Elizabeth · « **Reply #20 on:** 4 May 2011, 05:30 am »

I have magnepan 3.6s.
The speakers are toed in more, due to the tweets being on the inside edges, instead of the outside edges.
This allows the speakers to be placed farther apart
So my speakers are about 40" from back wall, and edges are about 22" from side walls, with about 60" between
Then I am about 8 to 9 ft away from the midplane of speakers. With an additional many feet behind me, a 3" wide partition 6 feet back, then the rest of both sides way back additional 10 ft or so to wall.
Behind speakers are, sides: filled bookshelves floor to ceiling, and from corner to behind: heavy drapes, opened in center with giant window center.
Sides between speakers and listening seat, Plasma along left wall, with video stuff including 5.1 slimline Canton CD300/360 system, right wall loveseat. Immediate left of listening position, stereo stuff on rack, at hand, with power conditioners behind the rack Further back left 2 TTs.
My Lps, 6,000 in bedroom. Too many to have room to live if in living room. In the bedroom LP storage no problem, nearly all on one wall and a few on short wall.
Cds in entryway area. DVDs all over the place.
And for those who decry having more than one set of speakers in room, I am anathema. With the 5.1 crossfiring the short axis, and the stereo on the long axis.

Delta Wave · « **Reply #21 on:** 4 May 2011, 09:53 am »

Mine are toed in directly at me at the moment, about an inch closer since I started using the balanced inputs on my amps. It varies with component changes, whatever sounds best where I sit... that's the whole idea, is it not? An inch here or there makes all the difference.

jtwrace · « **Reply #22 on:** 4 May 2011, 11:16 am »

Quote from: Delta Wave on 4 May 2011, 09:53 am

about an inch closer since I started using the balanced inputs on my amps.

Why do you think that changed your speaker position?

soundbitten1 · « **Reply #23 on:** 4 May 2011, 03:47 pm »

None - speakers facing straight forward Dunlavy Alethas are 9 feet apart in the great room (combined living room, dining room, kitchen) approx. 25 x 27, 2 story cathedral ceiling, 6 full length glass door panels on one side. Tried different positions but to my ears they sound better facing straight ahead.

Pez · « **Reply #24 on:** 4 May 2011, 03:59 pm »

I toe-in so the speakers are pointing right at me.

RM-40s tri-amped, ribbons. speakers are at least 9 feet apart and about the same distance from the listening position.

I've tried everything from no toe in to toe in in front to slightly behind the listening position. When I first got the 40s with my original setup toe-in to the listening position was too intense. Just not a fun listening experience, it was because of my setup. I have done a metric shit ton of upgrading to every aspect of my system imaginable in the last 2 years, low and behold toe-in to my listening position sounds absolutely amazing with no fatiguing or nastiness.

Delta Wave · « **Reply #25 on:** 4 May 2011, 04:54 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 4 May 2011, 11:16 am

Why do you think that changed your speaker position?

Because the signal to the amps changed slightly which effected the amp output...

doug s. · « **Reply #26 on:** 5 May 2011, 07:52 pm »

i didn't wote. why? because it depends on the speakers. when i had thiel 3.5's, they sounded great w/little to no toe-in. most other speakers i have used, (meret re, warious proacs, coincident wictory, piega p5 mkll ltd, to name a few), sound best w/typical toe in to yust behind the listening position. my present speakers - a triamped system w/oris 150 horns handling everything above 250hz - sounds best in its present room w/toe-in to cross in front of the listening position. this gives excellent soundstaging in the listening position, and the best off-axis soundstaging. i suspect this has to do w/the directionality of the horns, compared to more conwentional speaker design. when you're off-axis, the speaker you are furthest from is pointing more directly at you, when toe-in crosses the speakers in front of the main listening position...

doug s.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #27 on:** 6 May 2011, 02:42 am »

Great points Doug and I would add that it also changes as per application. For my stereo system the speakers are very slightly toed in, almost straight ahead, which gives precisely placed images in a wide and deep soundstage, albeit for one listening position. But for the HT system that needs to sound good with multiple listening positions, the speakers cross well in front of the main listening chair, and it sounds as good on the couch to one side as it does on a recliner on the other. These alignments stayed the same even though I swapped the speakers in each system, Maggie Panels for PSB box speakers (in order to experiment with a certain Pioneer receiver unkind to Magneplanar low impedances).

JohnR · « **Reply #28 on:** 9 May 2011, 10:01 am »

Whoops forgot to follow up my own poll

That's very interesting results, thanks to all who voted and posted

It turns out I'm in the minority, with about 1 in 6 of us toeing to in front of the listener.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #29 on:** 9 May 2011, 07:03 pm »

I toe in so they cross slightly in front of me, but as I've said before (and I think it needs repeating as I have seen no response ever to this particular note) there is a very easy and infallible way to know if your positioning is right - the mono phantom center image. When listening conditions are right, and "conditions" includes:

1. choice of speaker
2. choice of room and set up location within the room
3. distance of speaker from walls, floor and ceiling
4. acoustic treatment of room
5. amount of toe in
6. tip back or forward of speaker

then you will hear a tight, narrow mono image coming from the center between your speakers, with no sound seeming to originate at the speaker itself. This is especially impressive if you can achieve this with white or pink noise. With this as a sound source, problems can be easily heard as a horizontal smearing of certain frequencies.

Since even the best amps will vary in performance from one channel to the other, this is best done at low levels with one channel of an amp driving both speakers in parallel, impedance and amp permitting.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #30 on:** 9 May 2011, 08:58 pm »

The mono phantom center image . . . . a great description. Here's a true story. A friend of mine was over here listening to some tunes a few weeks ago and he actually commented on this aspect of my set up. He said it sounded like I had an invisible center channel. I should have told him that I was using a mono phantom center image processor. He would have believed it!

This is the probably the main reason why I also toe in this much, to get that solid center image stability and more believable side to side stuff. I'm always looking at ways to improve what I have though. I like the pink noise test idea and I will try that again just to see where I am.

I never thought of using just one amp (or one channel) to adjust both L + R with a mono source. Wouldn't all of those fine adjustments be moot once you go back to two channel amplification since the stereo channel balance is no longer perfect? In other words, shouldn't you take into account the imperfect channel balance that you already have when you do the test? Just curious about your thoughts on this.

Russtafarian · « **Reply #31 on:** 9 May 2011, 09:12 pm »

Didn't vote but have my RM30s pointing straight at me. Alan Perkins setup method has good insight on determining proper toe in for speaker & room.

http://www.immediasound.com/Speaker%20set-up%202009.pdf

Russ

stvnharr · « **Reply #32 on:** 9 May 2011, 10:15 pm »

I have small listening rooms. I use Master Set with a lot of toe in.

In small rooms I've found a lot of toe in is needed. The above posting about optimizing a good mono image can be most helpful, whether using one or both channels. And I think if you just adjust one speaker you can likely equalize the sound throughout the room.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #33 on:** 10 May 2011, 03:54 am »

Quote from: Russell Dawkins on 9 May 2011, 07:03 pm

then you will hear a tight, narrow mono image coming from the center between your speakers, with no sound seeming to originate at the speaker itself. This is especially impressive if you can achieve this with white or pink noise. With this as a sound source, problems can be easily heard as a horizontal smearing of certain frequencies.

Hmmm, maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never had a problem creating a tight center image. Is there something I'm missing in your post Russell?

Quote from: Russtafarian on 9 May 2011, 09:12 pm

Alan Perkins setup method has good insight on determining proper toe in for speaker & room.

http://www.immediasound.com/Speaker%20set-up%202009.pdf

Russ

Yes, also called the Audio Physic speaker placement. Note that we have a fairly extensive set of links regarding various speaker placements right here on an Enclosures sticky (cough, cough, where's that trumpet when you need it for yourself?)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87093.0

Tyson · « **Reply #34 on:** 10 May 2011, 04:53 am »

After reading the AK site a bit more, I toed in my V2's to cross 30 degrees in front of me, and the sound improved quite a bit. More reflection off the side walls and less from the front walls equals better sound with OB speakers.

jtwrace · « **Reply #35 on:** 10 May 2011, 11:20 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 10 May 2011, 04:53 am

After reading the AK site a bit more, I toed in my V2's to cross 30 degrees in front of me, and the sound improved quite a bit. More reflection off the side walls and less from the front walls equals better sound with OB speakers.

Did you happen to take measurements to confirm your findings? I found that taking measurements as I did my toe sweep was beneficial. I did a sweep of 5* on each speaker...

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #36 on:** 10 May 2011, 03:08 pm »

taking measurements of what?

jtwrace · « **Reply #37 on:** 10 May 2011, 03:10 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 10 May 2011, 03:08 pm

taking measurements of what?

Of the toe change on how it acts in the room.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #38 on:** 10 May 2011, 03:18 pm »

yes, but what specifically are you measuring?

bummrush · « **Reply #39 on:** 10 May 2011, 04:05 pm »

6 feet away. Toed in at me so I see no edges from seat visable

Poll

By how much?

Do you toe in? (and why?)