Need tonearm and cart recomendations.

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bastlnut

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Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #20 on: 1 May 2011, 07:27 am »
hallo,

something that no one is mentioning is that Azimuth is an important factor.
the Rega has no provisions for Azimuth adjustment!
one can use shims to correct wrong Azimuth but this is not easily done for one new to vinyl.
a Jelco has Azimuth adjustment and does not ring like a Rega arm.
easy choice for me.
with better cartridges that have all the geometry and angles right one of the better Rega arms are worth it,
but not the budget arms and entry level or budget cartridges.

Grado cartridges sound much better on light tonearms, so a light tonearm is what i would use with a Grado.....and do as this is one of my fav combinations.
if you want to stick with the Rage tonearm, i would suggest a Benz Silver or Gold cartridge as these are tested in the Benz factory and all settings checked and will have the correct geometry so Azimuth will be less of a factor.  :thumb:

there are quite  few tonearms that use the some mounting distance as the Rega.
the other armboard is probably for the Linn mounting distance....unless i read wrong earlier....and here there are more choices.
maybe the seller of the Townshend will also have a tonearm for you closer to your price range and will let you pay him the rest in one month?
you can trade him the Rega arm for something else.

regards,
bas

Ericus Rex

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #21 on: 1 May 2011, 08:40 pm »
I'm also not convinced that an Audiomod is better than a 370. None of these testimonials have compared a 370 to a modded Rega. Jelco has made zillions of arms, including high end arms. A 370 is not a PT9 or an MMT, a 750 or a FR64. It's a Nakamichi. FYI, I've read testimonials for the 370 that are just as convincing. I'm saying this to balance out the previous posts.
neo

The Audiomods is not a modified Rega.  It's a completely new arm that's based on the Rega armtube and lifter only.  Check out the website.  The base is new, the counterweight is new, the bearings are new, the antiskate is new, etc. etc.  I don't know how it compares to the Jelco recommended but I can tell you that it walks all over the Tecnoarm and Origin Live arms - those two I would call modified Regas.

orthobiz

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #22 on: 1 May 2011, 09:43 pm »
I have an RB600. Everything is based off the 250 and there are subtle differences that preclude upgrading the 600?

Paul

neobop

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Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #23 on: 2 May 2011, 03:30 am »
The Audiomods is not a modified Rega.  It's a completely new arm that's based on the Rega armtube and lifter only.  Check out the website.  The base is new, the counterweight is new, the bearings are new, the antiskate is new, etc. etc.  I don't know how it compares to the Jelco recommended but I can tell you that it walks all over the Tecnoarm and Origin Live arms - those two I would call modified Regas.

I don't see what that has to do with the price of chickens. The least expensive Audiomods arm is $870 incl ship, + any import duty.

Here's what OP said concerning cost:
"I was hoping to get an arm and cart for about $500"

Even used, choices are limited. If it was my $500 budget, I'd get the 370 and the nicest cart I could find for $200. If the budget could be stretched a little, maybe a Benz Gold/Silver on there instead of an ATF3III.
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATF3III&Category_Code=A3

http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=BENZMCGOLD&Category_Code=BENZM

It's up to OP how he wants to go, what cart to use, whether or not to get an arm with future upgrades in mind etc etc. IMO one of the combos I suggest would much more desirable than a Rega/2MRed. OP has not indicated a cart preference. The 370 is better suited for low/med cu. Because it has damping it will work with carts like an OC9.

Even used, a Technoarm or OL1 is $600 range.

dlaloum

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Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #24 on: 2 May 2011, 08:16 am »
I will start by saying that my knowledge of the "arm" field is limited... (ie I have read peripherally on the topic but not meandered into there in depth)

My own approach to selecting an arm would start from a philosophical perspective...

So first question would be whether you tend towards the light arm, high compliance, low tracking force philosophy, or the opposing heavy arm, low compliance, high VTF school.

Without trying to pigeon hole - the heavy arm school tends primarily towards MC cartridges, and the light arm school uses a lot of MM / MI cartridges.

The Light arm school was at its peak in the late 70's and early 80's, coinciding with the peak of MM/MI development.

So if you are inclined towards this school you may find excellent value in a range of classic arms and cartridges, combined with either NOS styli or styli by the likes of Jico in Japan. (Also Grado, Cartridgeman, and Soundsmith are all proponents of the high compliance low mass side of things)

The vast majority of current vinyl oriented audiophiles are in the other camp - this camp developed along with the rise and dominance of MC cartridges. - Most MC's have lower compliance (stiffer suspension) - as a result of which.... 1) they put more energy back into the arm, generating more intermodulation - which requires more internal arm damping to compensate, and 2) a heavier arm is needed to reduce arm/cartridge resonance. (the latter being facilitated by the weight of the damping required....)

Some legendary cartridges (ADC XLM, Sonus, Empire 4000) had very high compliances (35 to 60cu) - and as a result will not give of their best in medium or heavy mass arms.
And vice versa the same applies for many current and classic TOTL MC cartridges which had/have very low compliance and will not do well in low mass arms.

Having tackled the mass issue - the next one is damping...

There are two types of damping - internal vibration damping, and external fluid or electro-magnetic servo damping.
The first is designed into the arms materials for low mass arms, and then added as internal layers/coatings for higher mass arms. - Pretty much built in and a design factor for most arms - tweaks are available that add damping - but keep in mind the mass that these add if you are heading down the high compliance path.
The second - fluid damping/servo damping - this is where the Townshend brand has a BIG reputation. If you can get the original headshell mounted damping trough and paddle from townshend to fit to whatever arm you are getting this is a MASSIVE bonus.
This type of damping is a hugely underestimated boost to performance, and the head mounted technique pioneered by townshend is possibly the best example of it. All the others are either pivot point based, or close to the pivot point - which due to physics and leverage effect is less effective than Headshell based damping.

There are arms with built in oil damping (JVC comes to mind) - others with troughs and paddles (SME, Technics KAB Mod). Servo damping is limited (to the best of my knowledge) to integrated arm/tables and not available on add on arms. (so no more need be said about that method)

Damping will : 1) Control the cartridge / arm resonance, massively widening the range of cartridges that can be used with a specific mass arm (so lower compliance can work better with light arms, and higher compliance better with mid arms) - it won't however take things as far as allowing a very high compliance cartridge to work optimally with a very heavy arm - but it will allow a high compliance cartridge to work very well in a mid mass arm...
2) Depending on the design, (and sometimes adjustable as a result) the damping can also absorb and mitigate energy/vibrations pushed by the stylus into the arm (particularly for lower compliance cartridges)
3) Almost any imaginable cartridge will perform better in a damped arm - however an arm can also be "overdamped" apparently. (this first makes perfect sense to me, the latter is hearsay, and I am yet to be convinced... - some of the vibrations that damping eliminates are at times taken as a sonic improvment... to me this makes them distortions, occasionally euphonic ones but distortions never the less)

Final factor:
Linear tracking or Pivoted?
In a perfect world, the perfect stylus needs to track the same tangential path taken by the cutting head that originally recorded the record.
The only way to achieve that is using a linear tracking arm. (there is I believe now a pivoted arm that uses some magical goemetry to achieve the same end, but it is well outside the price bracket under consideration here - uses the same principle as the Garrard Zero100 did but better engineered)
All pivoted arms are a compromise, and regardless of how well you align them, will have tracking error - which translates into distortion.
On the other hand, pivoted arms have had the lions share of the engineering development over the last 90 or so years - and like any flawed technology with that level of R&D thrown at it - it works really really well.
You can get into Linear tracking around your price point with something like the MG1 Advanced Analog arm...
http://adanalog.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1
(which also has an optional damping trough)

You can also sometimes find used Rabco arms out there....
For the rest most of the arms cam integrated into a TT, or are at the much higher end of the market.

For some years now the Mega Buck end of the TOTL TT market has been dominated by Linear trackers.


So to summarise, Decide:

1) High / Med / Low Compliance cartridge along with Low / Med / High Mass arm - respectively
2) Damped or Undamped
3) Linear or Pivoted

A strong preference on any of these criteria will at the very least halve the number of choices, a preference on two of these will narrow the choice further.

NOTE: in every single one of these categories there are excellent tonearms... and in quite a few of them there are absolute clunkers too...

Ericus Rex

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #25 on: 2 May 2011, 12:33 pm »
The link I posted to the Audiomods KIT comes out to around $445 with shipping.

So Andy, if you ABSOLUTELY MUST stay under $500 total, then your best best probably is the Jelco with Grado from BAMorin.  If you could spend a little bit more and get the Audiomods kit and the Grado I think you'd be very happy.

*disclaimer* - I have never directly compared my Audiomods with a Jelco.  No one here has, it seems.  Is it a better arm?  No one can say for sure.  Synergy is key after all.

Jlappy

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #26 on: 3 May 2011, 04:28 am »
The link I posted to the Audiomods KIT comes out to around $445 with shipping.

Hey, the kit sounds interesting and great idea for some DIY vinylheads like myself, yet followed the link http://www.audiomods.co.uk/armkits.html

and read this:

"The kits come as complete sub-assemblies and require you to mount the arm tube and then complete it with your choice of wire."

Sounds like it does not come with wire?  I think its more than $445 with shipping.

Jim

buckeyefanandy

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #27 on: 3 May 2011, 01:12 pm »
Will be finding a starter arm for now, and keep my eyes out for an audiomods down the line.

Ericus Rex

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #28 on: 3 May 2011, 02:51 pm »
Hey, the kit sounds interesting and great idea for some DIY vinylheads like myself, yet followed the link http://www.audiomods.co.uk/armkits.html

and read this:

"The kits come as complete sub-assemblies and require you to mount the arm tube and then complete it with your choice of wire."

Sounds like it does not come with wire?  I think its more than $445 with shipping.

Jim

Thanks for pointing that out, Jim.  That certainly would put the overall cost at over $500...possibly WELL over $500 if you went nuts.

dlaloum

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Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #29 on: 4 May 2011, 03:47 am »
I unintentionally posted my last contribution in a PM..... here it is reposted..... (I am wearing my flame retardant clothing as protection against the low compliance heavy arm fraternity...)

1) You have the trough/headshell rig - so you have damping covered 
2) You are therefore heading down the track of a pivoted arm 
3) You have defined the arm length (based on the plinth size/trough location etc...) - presumably 9"
4) The Grado is a solid high quality recommendation at an excellent price - you may later opt to add other cartridges to your "cartridge library" - but you have to start somewhere, and that is a highly regarded cartridge. I am not sure whether that table is Belt or Direct driven - if Direct it is worth checking whether that table with a Grado is prone to the dreaded "Grado Hum" - there is a "Grado Hum" spreadsheet of tables on Audiokarma I believe - you may find your TT there... just confirm that it is in fact OK with a Grado.
5) Arm Selection - the Grado is a high (ish) compliance cartridge - so by default you appear to have decided for a low to mid mass Arm (with all the pro's and con's attached to that spec.) All of the arms mentioned have a substantial audiophile reputation. Focus in on the combination with the grado cartridge, and select the arm based on something that will match well.

NOTE: targeting the Grado will by default set you up for High Compliance cartridges - so it will suit a lot of MM / MI Cartridges - but will not suit many MC cartridges as well.
Having the Damping trough will mean that if the arm mass is more towards the mid than the low end of the spectrum, it should be quite versatile and match with the higher compliance end of the MC spectrum as well.

Based on an "ideal" resonant frequency of 10Hz and a max/min of 12/8- your effective tonearm mass should be max/min = 20g/9g ideal=13g
Effective tonearm mass is a little of an arcane calculation, but if you get the tonearm mass spec, and add the weigh of the cartridge 5.5g + Screws 0.5g + headshell damping paddle mount mass - you will get the total effective mass. (the damping actually expands the max/min area... but you should still target the ideal zone)

So if the damping paddle mount weighs 5g your max total mass will be:

20g - 5g (paddle)- 6g (cartridge+screws) = 9g target arm mass

and you will have no minimum as the same calculation takes you below Zero at the minimum setting.

Arm specs can often be found at http://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_database.php

Origin OL1               11g
Origin Encounter       14.5g
Michell RB250 Special 11g
Michell TecnoArm      12g
Rega RB250              12g
Rega RB300              11.5g
hadcock 228              9.1g / 6g (hard to find the data and I am getting two differing measures!)

Based on your choosing a Grado, I would opt for the Hadcock 228 - it also has a great reputation with Grado's in particular, and high compliance cartridges in general.

The high compliance world is very much in the minority nowadays, and the Hadcock (which is a mid mass arm) is often considered a low mass arm... (which it is, by comparison to the majority of arms today, which are high mass!).

Also of interest to you might be this article about damping...http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/bas/0809/

Examples of Low(er) mass arms that might be suitable (no idea on pricing...)

Audio Technica 1100/1120 (5g)
Grace G707 (7g)
Mission 774 (5,5g)
Mission 774LC (7g)
Morch UP4/DP6 red (5.7g)
Morch UP4/DP6 green (3.8g)
Signet (5g)
SME Series III (5g)
SME Series II Improved (6.5g)
Sonus Formula IV (4g)
Well Tempered Arm (6.8g)

As another side note: the Grado's are relatively insensitive to cable capacitance-similarly to MC cartridges- which makes life easier than with many other MM / MI designs

bye for now

David

dlaloum

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Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #30 on: 4 May 2011, 04:13 am »
And a further note - this one to do with taking my own advice with a grain of salt...

There is online http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-04-08-7605b.pdf - an interview with Peter Pritchard of ADC and Sonus fame - one of the most famous high compliance cartridge designers.

Of interest is his contention that the common 10Hz resonance target is flawed, and that 6Hz is sonically better. (what he doesn't talk about is that this will make the TT more sensitive to low frequency external influences like footfall vibration.... so it becomes more important to mount the TT right in the appropriate wall stand, platform, rack etc.... to isolate it from LF external vibration)

If you set the lower limit as 5Hz (based on a 6Hz ideal target) and using the resonance calculator at http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html

for a cartridge with 20cu compliance the Total eff. arm mass would need to be 51g (!!)

for 6Hz .... 35g
for 7Hz .... 26g
for 8Hz .... 20g (which brings us back to the previous posting)

Again I just don't know the weight of the paddle attachment - so adjust the calcs once you know its weight!

Effective Arm Mass spec for

5Hz ..... 40g
6Hz ..... 24g
7Hz ..... 15g
8Hz ..... 9g

Taking the Pritchard approach along with the damping trough - you can pretty much match any high compliance cartridge to any arm....

The Hadcock arm has a reputation for good synergy with the Grado's.

My own JVC QL-Y5F has an effective mass (with Grado mounted) of 17.5g - resonance freq = 8.6Hz (confirmed through measurement using tone sweep)

The Arms effective mass (removing weight of cartrige and screws) is 11.7g

This is higher than ideal - but it is a damped (electrically in this case) arm - and as soon as I dial in the damping the cartridge dials in nicely and settles down, sounding great.

The same applies heading in the opposite direction (to lower compliance cartridges). The damping is hugely important in making this work with a wide range of cartridges.

Nice TT!

Bye for now

David

Ericus Rex

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #31 on: 4 May 2011, 12:04 pm »
Isn't the Hadcock unipivot?  Will a uni work well with the trough system?

TheChairGuy already mentioned he had a Grado on his Townshend and it worked fine so I think Andy's OK there...unless they changed motors between the models.

neobop

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Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #32 on: 4 May 2011, 12:49 pm »
Buck,
Are you set on a Grado?  If so, I didn't realize.
Do you have the damping trough that goes up front?

The answer to those 2 questions is vital at this juncture, in making a practical decision. A vast array of possibilities could be narrowed down quite easily.

BaMorin, our resident Grado expert should be consulted if that's what you're  thinking. I don't believe he fancies Jelco arms with Grados.

If you don't have the trough that fits near the headshell, then a used  Hadcock would be better IMO with a Grado. If you fit the armboard on the table, you can measure the distance from center-spindle to the center of the mounting hole. Even if your measurement is not perfect, it should tell us which model arm you have the armboard for. Maybe you should do this anyway, even if you don't get a Hadcock. At least you'll know what you have.

Other arms might also be a possibility with your 2 armboards. The Rega board should be at 222mm with a hole around 3/4". Besides the improved Rega type arms there are others that use the same cutout. I have an 8g unipivot that takes the same board. I have an even lighter unipivot that mounts at 225mm, but could be moved up a couple of mm and still work out.

You might be able to find a higher quality used arm that will work out nicely with your immediate plans. We need more info. This thread could go on forever with nearly endless possibilities.
neo

buckeyefanandy

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #33 on: 4 May 2011, 01:02 pm »
I am strongly leaning toward the Grado, but seemed that the arm choices may be limited in the budget range.  I do have the dampening trough and head shell. 

neobop

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Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #34 on: 5 May 2011, 03:07 am »
Hey Buckaroo,
Well, I still don't know what Hadcock armboard you have, but I doubt if you'll find one anyway in your price range, even used. Just so you know, the mounting distance for the 228 is 8.38" and the 242 is 8.9"

I don't think you can use the headshell damping and a silicone damped unipivot at the same time. At least I wouldn't think so. So, if you rig that up you should have no problem with a Grado on Rega arm. I think it would be unlikely that you'll find something better for that kind of dough.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtnrm&1308415792&/Moth-Mk1-(Rega-RB251)

I know, it's hideously ugly, but it should do the job. Once you have Soultrane or My Favorite Things spinning, you'll forget how bad it looks, really. It might even start looking good, cause it will be part of your means to play records. For that bread, you should even have enough to get a VTA adjuster. That way you won't have to stand on your head to make a minor but vital adjustment. 

If you have another option that you can afford, let us know. Don't worry about the mass of a Rega arm. That wasn't why I was recommending something else. You mentioned a Michell or an OL-1. By all means, if you can get one of those, do it.
neo

jimdgoulding

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #35 on: 5 May 2011, 03:23 am »
I am strongly leaning toward the Grado, but seemed that the arm choices may be limited in the budget range.  I do have the dampening trough and head shell.
With a trough?  Haven't seen one of those in a long time.

BaMorin

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Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #36 on: 5 May 2011, 09:25 pm »
And a further note - this one to do with taking my own advice with a grain of salt...

There is online http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/pdf/bass/BASS-04-08-7605b.pdf - an interview with Peter Pritchard of ADC and Sonus fame - one of the most famous high compliance cartridge designers.

David

I gotta like this part............reminds me of something from a year or so ago

Pritchard also explained that it's nearly impossible to lower mass by using a nude diamond. In such styli, the diamond is secured by having a very thin sliver of diamond extend through thecantilever shank, where it's secured with something like epoxy cement. If one doesn't use enough cement, the stylus wiggles in the shank, and if one does use enough, the mass advantage is lost.The Sonus approach is to bond the tip to a tiny bit of steel. The steel is readily enchored to the shank without significantly adding to mass.

I was using a Sonus Blue on my KD-500/Mayware.  A kid at the stereo store handed me a $13.00 cart to try.  The rest is history.

Ericus Rex

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #37 on: 8 May 2011, 02:21 pm »
So I just picked up a Jelco 370 off the 'bay labeled LAD.  I needed an inexpensive 2nd arm and Neobop's high recommendation was certainly a factor in my decision.  Cheaper than the Jelco branded ones on ebay too.  Should be here in a few weeks.  I'll post my thoughts after I've got it up and running.

http://cgi.ebay.com/L-A-D-Tone-Arm-made-Jelco-/230616864052?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b1d61534#ht_500wt_1156

BaMorin

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Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #38 on: 8 May 2011, 07:25 pm »
So I just picked up a Jelco 370 off the 'bay labeled LAD.  I needed an inexpensive 2nd arm and Neobop's high recommendation was certainly a factor in my decision.  Cheaper than the Jelco branded ones on ebay too.  Should be here in a few weeks.  I'll post my thoughts after I've got it up and running.

http://cgi.ebay.com/L-A-D-Tone-Arm-made-Jelco-/230616864052?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35b1d61534#ht_500wt_1156

Actually I think it may be easier on initial set up than the Jelco 370H. Because the "A" in L A D on the headshell. the top point of the "A" should be real close to 229mm from pivot. Setting the stylus below that, and square in headshell should get you real close to baerwald nulls. Provided you mount the arm @214mm from spindle.

What table is this going on?

Ericus Rex

Re: Need tonearm and cart recomendations.
« Reply #39 on: 8 May 2011, 08:59 pm »
Hi Marc,

The arm is actually a 239/222mm arm.  See blueprint below.  I'm going to use it as the second arm on my Musical Life Symphony table.  I have yet to decide if I'll put a mono cartridge on it or my Grado Red (or even the Black I intend to modify) for my 'dumpster diver' records I don't want my expensive stylus touching.