[neobop]

Maybe the recent thread on synergy was a bit too broad of a topic for a lot of participation.  This is certainly more specific. Looking for arm/cart combos that work well together. You can approach this from the arm or the cart, whatever works. You can be specific or talk in general terms.

This isn't just for newbies. There's been hundreds of different arms and carts over the years. Sometimes we just aren't sure what the specs are, or more importantly, what actually works with what, and sounds good. There are also carts that seem to defy the rules and sound better with arms that you wouldn't ordinarily expect. If people get different results from a particular poster, lets hear about it. Maybe bearing design vs cart type has something to do with an opinion. That could be important when making a decision concerning appropriate or synergistic combinations. Perhaps sometimes we're too concerned about vertical compliance and low frequency resonance.

AT-440ML(a) - This is the same body, compliance as the AT-120. It seems to work well in low/med arms around 11 to 13g eff mass. I got better results in a 6g modified Sonus Formula 4 oil damped unipivot. Transients and imaging seemed better. This was with my usual 30K load with very low capacitance. It was very good on an Alphason 100S (11g) under the same load/cables. Perhaps it was a bit more solid sounding on the 100S. It was faster and more live sounding on the Formula 4. It seemed like it was a little more detailed too. Everything was a little more real, including the bass.
neo

[Ericus Rex]

I have to admit that I don't have lots of experience here; I've only owned 4-5 cartridges and even fewer arms in my day.  However...

My Oracle Alexandria never sounded better than when I found a used Oracle Prelude arm and stuck a Grado Green on it.  The combo on it before was far more expensive:  Micro Seiki CF-1 arm with Benz M2 cart.  I'm not dissing either the MS arm or the Benz, they are both great pieces but something about the synergy between Alexandria, Prelude and Grado really sings!

[orientalexpress]

sumiko mmt arm with empire mc-5m really sing.Original L1 with dynvector 20 DX sound much better then with sumiko arm.Empire doesn"t sound too good with OL1.the DX20 does not sound good with technics 1200 either.FR mc201 match better with OL1.


lapsan

[neobop]

I have to admit that I don't have lots of experience here; I've only owned 4-5 cartridges and even fewer arms in my day.  However...

My Oracle Alexandria never sounded better than when I found a used Oracle Prelude arm and stuck a Grado Green on it.  The combo on it before was far more expensive:  Micro Seiki CF-1 arm with Benz M2 cart.  I'm not dissing either the MS arm or the Benz, they are both great pieces but something about the synergy between Alexandria, Prelude and Grado really sings!

OKAY, this is interesting. Help refresh my memory. The Oracle Prelude arm was a straight med/light arm, with removable headshell? I remember the Alexandria quite well. It was surprisingly close to the original Delphi. You got it used with the Micro Seiki and Benz? What phono stage(s) were you using? What about the CF-1, what can you tell us about that?
neo

[neobop]

sumiko mmt arm with empire mc-5m really sing.Original L1 with dynvector 20 DX sound much better then with sumiko arm.Empire doesn"t sound too good with OL1.the DX20 does not sound good with technics 1200 either.FR mc201 match better with OL1.

lapsan

So, the legendary MC-5 likes the MMT better than the lighter OL-1, and visa versa for the Dynavector. Is this the same Dynavector as the current 20 that comes in high and low output?
I think the 1200 arm is just a gram or so heavier than the OL-1, but not as good with the Dynavector.
The Fidelity Research is better with the OL-1.

Thanks Lapsan, good stuff.

If anybody has different results with a cart or arm, please let us know. Even if it's the same combo and things worked out differently. This isn't a question of right or wrong. Sometimes one set of results can be off or different due to any number of factors.
neo

[orientalexpress]

yes,the dynvector is the low output one.also have a benz ACE low output on the MMT right now i like it so far,i will try that on sl1200 and OL1 later.so many cartright so little time 



lapsan




lapsan

[Ericus Rex]

OKAY, this is interesting. Help refresh my memory. The Oracle Prelude arm was a straight med/light arm, with removable headshell? I remember the Alexandria quite well. It was surprisingly close to the original Delphi. You got it used with the Micro Seiki and Benz? What phono stage(s) were you using? What about the CF-1, what can you tell us about that?
neo

The Prelude arm is the arm Oracle supplied with the Alexandrias.  It does not have a removable headshell.  It was semi-automatic in that it lifted at the end of the record (but the platter kept spinning til you hit "Stop").  The autolift was the Achilles heel of the arm.  Many of them no longer function properly which now means the only cue lift is your shaky finger.  Long story short:  I bought the Alex, the included Prelude was faulty and missing parts, my local high end shop had a Micro Seiki CF-1 he put on it for me, I sold that arm with a Micro DDX-1000 a year ago (cool table BTW!), I found a fully functional Prelude online about a year ago, I prepped the Alexandria for sale with this Prelude arm since I had acquired a Delphi Mk II, I liked what I heard from the refurbed Alex, I kept the Alex, I bought a Musical Life TT, I am selling the Delphi (locally, I hope), will sell the Alex for the right price - though this table is highly undervalued among audiofools and I'd rather keep it than give it away.

I ran the Alex through a number of phono stages and with a few cartridges (all with MS arm).  Originally, my local stereo guru put on a Grado but I can't remember which model (it wasn't wood bodied, nor standard prestige model).  I soon upgraded to a Sumiko BP.  I was never particularly happy with that cartridge in my setup so I got the Benz.  Stages through all this would have been (in rough chronological) Cary SLP-90, Counterpoint SA-3.1, Melos MA-211, Music Reference RM-5, Counterpoint SA-5.1, Ray Samuels Nighthawk and Rogue 99 Magnum (last two I still own).  The Alex sounds great with the Nighthawk and the Rogue 99.

The Micro Seiki CF-1 is a carbon-fiber wanded version of the MA-707.  Very neat arm!  It sounded much better with the Micro DDX-1000 I sold it with than it ever did with the Oracle.  I have some pics of all these tables at home I can post later.

Sorry for the long reply....

[neobop]

I have an old Monster Alpha Genesis 1000. It's a light cart, around 4.5g. Tracks 1.6 to 1.8 and has a cu of 15. It works best for me with arms around 14 to 16g eff mass. Was great on a Zeta (16g) and sounds really good on the Kenwood 770d. It's better with a 3.3g lead spacer on the Alphason. That's an 11g arm + the lead. I estimate the 770 to be around 14g.

Some carts seem less finicky or critical of arm mass. I'm not exactly sure why. If a cart has a stabilizer, that would explain some tolerance. But my Stanton 980 seems to track and sound good on a wide range of arms w/o stabilizer. I've been using it on a Unitrac, 8g undamped unipivot. I bought if from Kevin at KAB. He told me it out-tracked everything on a 1200 arm, and would go to the last track on his test record, which nothing else tracked. It seemed to do OK on the Kenwood too, although I didn't leave it on there for long. I think the 881 is much the same. Anybody have other Stantons?
neo

[bastlnut]

hallo,

i have a Stanton 680S with stabilizer. use it to archive and the calibrated coils are an improvement over the latere more budget oriented offerings.
it seems to like heavier tonerams best and the Stereohedron tip is fantastic.....luckily i have 2 of these!
found the Stanton 500 likes a lighter tonearm unless you are using a broadcast conical stylus.

i had an Alex too. the Prelude arm is not bad and is heavier than it looks, probably about 14g.
the auto lift function just needs to be adjusted to get it to work properly, but you need to get some tiny tools (i forget which) to do this.
i agree, the Alex is a great value now. i would probably keep and upgrade a Delphi over an Alex though.
depends on ones needs and ability to tweak.

regards,
bas

[neobop]

On another thread I mentioned the Denon MCs and the the unusual results with the 304 and DL-S1 carts. These are relatively high compliance carts and track around 1.2, 1.3g. I got best results with med mass arms. It seemed to sound more solid. In this case I believe arm quality and ability to control the cart was the most important factor. There didn't seem to be a problem with low freq res.

Traditionally, it was said that MCs require a higher quality arm, bearings, rigidity etc. With the coils attached directly to the cantilever, dealing with vibrations, in both directions becomes more critical. It seems to me to be true, at least to some extent. It's not that arm quality isn't a factor with MMs, it's just that the generators are constructed/designed differently and have different mechanical requirements.

You read lots of "definitive" comparisons about different components in forums like this. Cart A is great and cart B is a POS. Many of these comparisons are 1 persons results with a very limited variety of equipment to make a judgement. Perhaps with a different set-up or phono stage, cart B comes out on top. I think one of the greatest benefits from forums like this, is finding out from others, what might work best. If I ever get an Empire MC-5, I'll have a better idea how to match it up. If you decide you want to try a 304 or DL-S1, you'll hopefully have a better idea about it.
neo

[orientalexpress]

over the weekend,i troll Craigslist and end up with a brand new benz micro SLR gullwing  ,It s sound good with OL1 so far,it said is need a 40 hours break in,I got to spin some vinyl to get to 40 hours mark.




Lapsan

[neobop]

over the weekend,i troll Craigslist and end up with a brand new benz micro SLR gullwing  ,It s sound good with OL1 so far,it said is need a 40 hours break in,I got to spin some vinyl to get to 40 hours mark.
Lapsan

Wow Lapsan, nice!  Once you break it in, it should be interesting which arm you like it on. Do you use any mods on either of your arms? Any extra damping or couplers?
neo

[orientalexpress]

just a peace wooden cork under the OL1 instead the O rings.It s sound better with it then without.I know i need a better arm to get the most out of this cartridge.believe it or not so Far The MC 5 sound just as good ,some of my friend came over last night like the MC 5 just a little  then the gullwin now but the gullwin need a little break in time.





Lapsan