[hibuckhobby]

I picked this up off a'gon with a Shure type 5 xmr cart. installed.
I have to admit...it's better than I had hoped.  I thought my Denon DP61f was a decent table, but this is a whole different level.  The Shure isn't as full in the midrange as the Grado I use on the other table, but the soundstage on the Rega is huge and deep.  Listening to Linda Ronstadt tonight and the "liveness" of the sound as well as how obvious the reverb the studio was using caught me by surprise.

Can't wait to do more testing and tweaking.
Hibuck....

[TheChairGuy]

Soundstages tend to be lusher, fuller and larger with belt drives.  Often a the expense of pitch and taut bass.

It's a tradeoff - all of it is.  If it reminds you of the real / live event and you're happy playing it - then it's good 

Them's the rules  

John

[BaMorin]

Soundstages tend to be lusher, fuller and larger with belt drives.  Often a the expense of pitch and taut bass.

It's a tradeoff - all of it is.  If it reminds you of the real / live event and you're happy playing it - then it's good 

Them's the rules  

John

Unless of course can identify what causes "pitch" issues and not so taut bass in a belt drive.

some of us prefer lush, fuller and larger....and then when we find simple cures, to common issues......well, lets just say we sit back and giggle when the tympani drums go "WHAM" 

[neobop]

Unless of course can identify what causes "pitch" issues and not so taut bass in a belt drive.

It's called wow and flutter - speed variations, a natural consequence of turning your platter with a rubber band. Other drive types aren't immune though.
neo

[BaMorin]

It's called wow and flutter - speed variations, a natural consequence of turning your platter with a rubber band. Other drive types aren't immune though.
neo

very little wow and flutter on a proper AR..........Speed and pitch concerns are addressed with changing the suspension system, and several "moments" that happen due to the sprung system. Mine are still sprung. A good belt, a good main bearing, a massive drive pulley, a sub chassis that outweighs the platters to create a torque offset.   

[TheChairGuy]

Bammer,

Indirect (ie, belt) drives have inferior bass tautness and overall pitch....next to direct drives.  Suspended indirect drives exacerbate the issue, not minimize it.

I'm talking only bass tautness...not bass weight or emotional impact that goes beyond hearing sometimes.

However, direct drives have a smaller soundstage (one tends to want to crank it up more in the hopes of widening the soundstage - but it never gets full enough).  All of the direct drives sound a bit constipated and chained up to me, tho.

The biggest soundstage I heard with a DD was an old DUAL 701...an oddity as the sub-base was suspended, but it was direct drive, nonethless.  It think it was pre-quartz lock...so perhaps the constant monitoring of the drive system I tend to hear with DD designs was less present.

btw, I love the Grado's on DD decks.  They seem to provide a nice counterbalance to the smaller soundstage and heft to the sonics lacking with DD's.  With belt drives, I find most Grado's impart too little definition to the music and I lose interest as it sounds less real.  Beats me - that's been my results, at least.

I have a slight preference for DD, all in all....that said,  my fave deck today in the VPI Classic (an indirect drive, but non suspended as the Rega's are).  OK, I'm fickle

It's probably a matter of what you hear and listen to.  I listen to a lot of piano music...and hear pitch wavering with all belt drives to an extent I never hear from direct drives of any variety.  Then again, I hear the pinched up/constipated/restrained sound of direct drive in comparison to belt drives.

There's no free lunch.  I've not heard a proper idler drive table....maybe that's the midpoint of the two that makes it a sweet spot for many in vinylphool land.  Someday, I hope to hear one 

If you love the sound of whatever deck you are listening to - it is indeed good then.  Them's the rules 

John

[neobop]

I think there are probably examples of every type of drive scheme that go beyond the ordinary limitations. To avoid a debate about any specific table, look at some of the more exotic ones.

Just as the Classic seems to overcome most of the speed issues with belts, the Goldmund Reference was a belt because of the weight of the platter. It had computerized speed regulation with a tach. I never heard pitch variations with piano or any other instrument. It wasn't mine, but I listen to it quite a bit and helped adjust it. Some heavy platter belt drives have great weight to the sound, but can sound thick and ponderous. That's the timing and pace thing the idler fans talk about. Some direct drivers seem to avoid soundstage limitations. The Studio and Studietto didn't seem restricted in this way. I'd bet the Teres DD tables don't suffer in this respect, but I have no experience with them. With relatively inexpensive DDs, there seems to be a trade off between quartz locked timing and non quartz natural presentation. With inexpensive belt drivers there's almost always some speed issues.

We're all sensitive to these issues in different ways. The speed thing might not bother some people unless it gets really bad. Some DDers might put a higher priority on speed stability than soundstage. Perhaps these generalizations don't hold up 100% but debating it is pointless.
neo

[Wayner]

The VPI Classic, much like the Empire tables, have massive platters. Thru inertia, they overcome speed variations and can mimic the best DD tables. The sound may sound thick because of the use (or lack of) mats and other damping tricks. Remember as the mass goes up, the resonance frequencies go down. Regardless of table, isolating the platter (and it's wobble, bearing noise) is desirable.

Direct drive table platters are not very massive, like 2 to 3 pounds, tops, but overcome speed variation by constant speed monitoring and adjustment. Some claim to hear this timing correction, I cannot.

As an owner of both DD and belt drive tables, I have learned to recognize each of their strengths and weaknesses. Claims that one is vastly superior over the other just doesn't seem to hold merit, at least not at this house.

Wayner

[BaMorin]

The VPI Classic, much like the Empire tables, have massive platters. Thru inertia, they overcome speed variations and can mimic the best DD tables. The sound may sound thick because of the use (or lack of) mats and other damping tricks. Remember as the mass goes up, the resonance frequencies go down. Regardless of table, isolating the platter (and it's wobble, bearing noise) is desirable.

Direct drive table platters are not very massive, like 2 to 3 pounds, tops, but overcome speed variation by constant speed monitoring and adjustment. Some claim to hear this timing correction, I cannot.

As an owner of both DD and belt drive tables, I have learned to recognize each of their strengths and weaknesses. Claims that one is vastly superior over the other just doesn't seem to hold merit, at least not at this house.

Wayner

Wasn't claiming superiority........was claiming that correcting issues overcame the diffusness of the bottom end (taut) and pitch (the piano test). Speed is held steady by 60hz, current draw changes don't happen with a syncro motor. Speed monitoring I hear, as the correction has to come after the incident.  Your arm will fall off before you see a bar on the strobe disk move.......granted, the light only comes on every 60th of a second, so between those points might be something happening.  Maybe JLappy can chime in on how his AR was changed as well from a suspension/mass loading approach.

[hibuckhobby]

I have, thus far, attributed any bass difference to the different cartridges.  What I am seeing with the Rega is a wider, deeper soundstage and a more natural, lifelike sound on records that I thought I was quite familiar with.  I confess that now I am already thinking new belt and sub-platter mods to see how much better it can get.  Then come cartridges.
Hibuck....

[BaMorin]

I have, thus far, attributed any bass difference to the different cartridges.  What I am seeing with the Rega is a wider, deeper soundstage and a more natural, lifelike sound on records that I thought I was quite familiar with.  I confess that now I am already thinking new belt and sub-platter mods to see how much better it can get.  Then come cartridges.
Hibuck....

I have heard from other Rega owners that the stock subplatter is less than round....not sure on the 25 how much factory tolerance is. I know on the P1 it is horrible.  Also the interface between belt and material of the subplatter is better with some of the aftermarkets....changing some fundamental induced belt/slip noise.  Belts have a built in slip factor. Don't be cheap with your belts.  As a side note, I find maybe two or three belts out of a dozen purchased to be satifactory.....but then again I'm anal retentive when i'm building a table for a customer. Belts like anything else need a bit of run-in time.
. 
Isolating the plinth is the next big step. You need to take mechanical/acoustical feedback down to below 4hz. 2hz is much better. Several ways to do this. The easiest is with an inner-tube inflated enough to support the mass without the tube compressed to the point of collapse. Usually a box is built to house this, and a plate of sorts resting on the tube, and the table sits on that plate. You can further this with good feet on that box to both level the whole system and attenuate the initial mechanical feedback. Another way to reduce mechanical feedback and drain plinth energy is with sandbags.  So, inner-tube to take the fundamental to 2hz or below, plate, sandbags for the plinth to sit flat on (full under contact) and good feet on the box. If ya wanna get real fancy, inflate the tube with light silicone oil. Silicone has the habit of turning energy(mechanical) into heat. As noted in another thread, Sony PS-X5/6/7 feet are silicone oil filled.

[hibuckhobby]

Back in the day...they used to build a box, fill it half full of sand and then put a butcher block on top of the sand to place the table on.  Thoughts?

[BaMorin]

Back in the day...they used to build a box, fill it half full of sand and then put a butcher block on top of the sand to place the table on.  Thoughts?

That still works.  With the additon of an inner tube, you create an acoustic suspension of very low frequency.