[bhobba]

Over the last year or so I have seen first hand the humbling of computer audio by a heavily tweaked Marantz player as transport in a reference system at a local audio manufacturer/retailer - Lenehan Audio.  I took my various incarnations of mac mini and DAC - including my Tranquility DAC's - down only to have the Marantz laugh in my face.  Others have taken up the challenge with the same frustrating result.

Now for the first time an acquaintance, previously humiliated, took a battery modified Audiophilleo2 down for the confrontation, and it bested the Marantz. This actually preempted my latest foray in taking up the gauntlet - I was getting a PDX Level 2 DAC built with a John Kenny I2S Hiface inbuilt.  Now the question is how will that DAC go against the Audiophilleo2.  I will keep you guys posted.

Thanks
Bill 

[ted_b]

As I asked on Audio Chews:
But Bill, the Audiophilleo2 is not a transport (or a DAC), it's a USB to SPDIF converter.  What USB source (transport) did he use, and what DAC was it connected to?  And what is this Marantz a transport for (i.e what DAC has been the backend of this up-till-now champion system)?

[satfrat]

 
 
                                       
 
 

[bhobba]

Hi Ted

As I posted on Audiochews generally a Mac Mini was used to supply USB although others were also tried including some windows machines and various notebooks.  A Auraliti was also tried.  A few USB DAC's were tried and when a USB only DAC was used the Marantz was usually fed into a PDX Level 2 DAC - but at least once into a Killer DAC.  These are the two best DAC's myself and others have heard - although some acquaintances think a Lite DAC 83 or Audio GD Ref 7 may have a slight edge. Up until this point nothing touched the modified Marantz.  Obviously we have not heard all the stuff out there.  But this was a significant challenge a number of us took up after having our computer audiophile illusions shattered by the Marantz.

Thanks
Bill

[skunark]

http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/audio10.pdf 

it amazes me that the spec can provide such a perfect setup. USB audio wasn't originally designed to be a high fidelity source.   Glad to see it improve, but forgive me for being doubtful for being better than an LP or a CD.

[firedog]

Skunark-

Just goes to show that listening means more than specs. Audition some up to date USB equipment (quality converter and/or DAC) and I think you will be pleasantly surprised at what you hear. Especially with hi-res files or files with quality mastering.

[skunark]

I have always been disappointed with USB DACs and I've owned Musical Fidelity (Vdac - crap), demoed the Ayre USB DAC and recently purchased the Bryston BDA (amazing minus usb input).   I've used Mac OSX, Linux and Vista/Win7 (least acceptable) with the vdac and the BDA ( ayre, just mac ) and have been disappointed.   Now that I have the Bryson BDP-1 using the AES EBU connection with the BDP (linux, mpd service) it's at a entirely new level with more detail and separation than what i've listen too with either CD or other setups including the USB DACs.   So i'm not exactly a stranger to usb dacs, just prefer to avoid the usb isochronous audio as much as I can.   I've also picked up the Oppo Digital BDP-95 and find playing CDs is almost comparable to the the BDP/BDA combo, and yet better than any USB DAC so far.

I probably should just agree to disagree with the USB gear heads.   Just there so much wrong with the USB DACs IMHO, with the recommended 20-step setup program that the manufactures recommend and along with the fact that you now have to deal with packet jitter and clock recover jitter. 

[TomS]

Bill,

Very interesting result. I've been using the Audiophilleo 1 with a combination linear 5v supply on the 5v USB power and 12v linear supply on my Alix MPD USB server board (KECES DC-115) and have been very satisfied. My only thought for improvement at this point would be to go the full Paul Hynes route for both.

Tom

[JohnR]

A forum with a less confrontational environment than a forum. interesting.

I for one would really appreciate a lucid explanation of the issues involved with USB audio. I'd love to publish it in HifiZine if the writer is up for it. ... Anyone?

[Crimson]

I have always been disappointed with USB DACs

Likewise, until I tried Wavelength. Even the entry level Brick is phenomenal, IMNSHO.

[ted_b]

Skunark, your Ayre was asynchronous USB.  It was not one of my faves either, but I've since heard several aysnch USb implementations (M2Tech Young, Antelope, Audiophilleo) that were great.

[bhobba]

I probably should just agree to disagree with the USB gear heads.   Just there so much wrong with the USB DACs IMHO, with the recommended 20-step setup program that the manufactures recommend and along with the fact that you now have to deal with packet jitter and clock recover jitter.

You hold exactly the same opinion as the guy that owned the reference system.  When I ordered my custom PDX DAC from him he was openly skeptical saying I should get an I2S version instead.  Now he is really keen to hear to hear my DAC and was discussing with the designer what else can be powered from the battery in the John Kenny.  If the quality holds up he may switch over entirely to computer audio and the DAC will come as standard with USB input - the other inputs will be special order.

My suggestion is have an open mind and see if it does best a top of the line transport.  There is really nothing to loose by doing that and everything to gain.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

I for one would really appreciate a lucid explanation of the issues involved with USB audio. I'd love to publish it in HifiZine if the writer is up for it. ... Anyone?

I don't know if I can give you that - actually I am pretty sure I can't.  But from my experience over the last year the issue seems to be removing unwanted junk from the data that travels down the USB cable.  It causes jitter and since it often is in the RF range can radiate around inside the DAC and gets into places it shouldn't.  The successful implementations I have heard are those that take extra care in that area.  It's not just async (that's where the DAC tells the computer to send data and it clocks it - not the computer) - yes that helps but is not the total answer.  You also need to ensure the power that feeds the USB to I2S conversion is as clean as possible so any issues in that area does not make it to the DAC or radiate around - this means not using the power that is supplied by the USB cable which can get quite contaminated.

John Kenny provides a pretty lucid account of what he found out:
http://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home/the-modification-story

Thanks
Bill

[ted_b]

Bill, Can you detail a little more about what you didn't like about the Burson?  Srajan loves it and places it a close second to the zodiac gold+voltikus (4x the cost) but understand you felt it was veiled (blanket over speakers kind of thing).  I know Srajan's tastes and find that curious, but at the same time the head-fiers aren't enamored with it either, and certainly not a giant killer category.  Thx
Ted

John,
I'm pretty sure i can get the "father of asynch USB" (not really, but a real pioneer) Gordon Rankin, to send me something.

[bhobba]

Bill, Can you detail a little more about what you didn't like about the Burson?  Srajan loves it and places it a close second to the zodiac gold+voltikus (4x the cost) but understand you felt it was veiled (blanket over speakers kind of thing).  I know Srajan's tastes and find that curious, but at the same time the head-fiers aren't enamored with it either, and certainly not a giant killer category.

When you hear it the first thing you notice is this warm analogue sound and you think - hey this sounds nice.  Then you put on a better DAC like the PDX and the sound is more realistic, lifelike, not as warm but with greater detail, bass, sound-stage etc - ie better in just about any area you can name.  Compared to the WFS again you notice the WFS bests it in just about every area except two - the WFS has a slightly cold top end (some uncharitably say like out of a freezer - but I don't agree with that) that is the exact opposite of the Burson's warm sound and maybe a slight sibilance control issue - maybe - the Burson has zero problems in that area.  Some prefer the Burson to the WFS - but I don't - I prefer the WFS.  To me, although its warmth does sound better than the coldness in the WFS, the extra detail, bass slam etc of the WFS more than compensates IMHO.

IMHO 6 Moons are having themselves on if they think this DAC is anywhere near a top of the line DAC - good for the money - quite likely (although that depends on how much you are taken with its warm sound), perhaps even the top DAC in its price range, but a killer DAC - hardly.  I got rid of mine quick smart - don't even own it anymore.  Certainly worth a listen if you want a DAC in that price range but if you can spend more you will reap the benefits.

IMHO with the special on the Tranquility DAC at the moment, which means it is about the same price as the Burson, I would get it rather than the Burson - the Tranquility eats it alive.

Thanks
Bill

[JohnR]

John Kenny provides a pretty lucid account of what he found out:
http://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home/the-modification-story

Thanks Bill, that's interesting reading.

John,
I'm pretty sure i can get the "father of asynch USB" (not really, but a real pioneer) Gordon Rankin, to send me something.

That would be awesome - please update me if any success 

[gary]

Bill -

You say that you tested a battery-powered Audiophilleo 2, but from what I can tell on their site the 2 doesn't have any other inputs besides the usb cable (although the more expensive Audiophilleo 1 does have 12V in). Am I correct in assuming the 5V power in the usb cable was replaced with an external battery?

gary

[TomS]

Bill -

You say that you tested a battery-powered Audiophilleo 2, but from what I can tell on their site the 2 doesn't have any other inputs besides the usb cable (although the more expensive Audiophilleo 1 does have 12V in). Am I correct in assuming the 5V power in the usb cable was replaced with an external battery?

gary

Not sure what Bill is doing there, but you are correct that the AP1 and AP2 do not have external 5v voltage inputs other than USB.  The 12v on the AP1 is for the remote 12v trigger functionality which I don't use. In my case, I break the +5v connection within the USB cable and power the AP1 from the 5v input to the USB port. Basically it's an external box with a USB in and USB out where the +5v does not pass through, rather it is sourced from a power input connector to the second USB jack.

[bhobba]

You say that you tested a battery-powered Audiophilleo 2, but from what I can tell on their site the 2 doesn't have any other inputs besides the usb cable (although the more expensive Audiophilleo 1 does have 12V in). Am I correct in assuming the 5V power in the usb cable was replaced with an external battery?

It wasn't me that did it - it was an acquaintance.  But my understanding is he cut the USB cable and connected its power lines to a battery - it evidently was a bit of a jury rig.

Thanks
Bill

[JoshK]

Minor nitpick/petpeeve:  I haven't kept up with all the last digital gizmos and when you read a lot of threads like this that throw around PDX, WFS, etc, it'd be nice if somewhere in the thread there was a reference to what that refers to.  There is of course a crowd who gets what you mean, but to everyone else it alienates them.