[mikecole]

I have a couple of questions for those of you that have heard the SB Touch with and without the analog mods and have heard or own an unmodded EE DAC. The question is, of course, unanswerable, but ...

 I have a Touch that has none of the Bolder mods done to it. Via the analog out and with some of the Touch Toolbox mods done, the bass is clean and tight, but has little weight or depth. The highs are also clean, but they can be a tad bit annoying at louder volumes. The soundstage is OK, but just a touch flat. In other words, it is listenable, but it in a plain jane kind of way.

I have enough money to get the Jerome Industries power supply mod and the Bolder analog mods done. If I had a knockdown dragout "chat" with my wife, I could possibly convince her that I absolutely must have an EE DAC, but the difference in sound quality and musical enjoyment would have to be pretty significant for me to feel like I did the right thing. It would also help if there was a very demonstrable difference between the unmodded analog outs of the Touch and the digital out of the Touch feeding the EE DAC. A difference great enough that my wife could *easily* hear it and agree that, yes, the difference was enjoyable enough to be conceivably worth the extra $450.

The question is a bit hard to phrase, but here goes. In absolute terms, is the difference between an unmodded Touch and an EE DAC hugely greater than the difference between an unmodded Touch and a modded Touch? Suppose you factor in the cost of the analog mods versus the cost of an EE DAC? And what if you factor in the difficulty in convincing someone who would really rather have you play your music very very very quietly

[datman]

I have a Touch that has had all of Soundcheck's software mods done.  I am using this with a Wyred 4 Sound Dac-1 and a Welbourne linear power supply with spectacular results.  The software improvements along with the W4S dac create a full bodied image with excellent weight and a smooth top end.  Imaging is outstanding, with this combo placing images 3d in between and in front of my speakers.

[Gopher]

I just miss your criteria.  I have a touch I've headed with and without digital mods on an EE DAC with and without level 1 mods.

Your treading into an area where few people will have much experience, but I've found in my numerous exchanges with Wayne of Bolder (I assume thats the modder you're considering) that he's a very honest guy and I'd probably defer to his suggestion.  IIRC, and I may not, he preferred using the stock EE DAC to his analog modified SBs, but I'm not sure of the chronology when he said that and he may have been referring to the modded duet/sb3.

One suggestion I'd chime in, irrespective of whether you go analog mods or digital mods, make sure that regulated psu is on the agenda.

[Steidl Guitars]

I have a stock touch feeding an EE DAC, and it's a noticeable improvement over the stock DAC.  Whether it's worth the money is depends on how much money you have. 

One advantage of the DAC is that you have some flexibility sound-wise; both SS and tube outputs, and you can roll tubes.  Although there are a few high dollar 12AU7s, there are many more that are very cheap. 

Lastly, if you don't think the DAC is a sufficient improvement, you can sell it for little loss; in my experience, mods don't return value nearly as well. 

[ramante]

Go with the unmodded Touch and good power supply and the unmodded ee dac with cryo fuse and good replacement tube.  Best bang for the buck!

[mcgsxr]

I would contact the modder and ask if there is anyone within a reasonable drive from you, that has one of the modded pieces, so you can hear it yourself.

While I agree that modded gear often does not hold value like some other options, sometimes the modded gear is so darn good, sale is not an option - I remain a Bolder SB3 user 5 years later.  Awesome value from Wayne.

[satfrat]

I would contact the modder and ask if there is anyone within a reasonable drive from you, that has one of the modded pieces, so you can hear it yourself.

While I agree that modded gear often does not hold value like some other options, sometimes the modded gear is so darn good, sale is not an option - I remain a Bolder SB3 user 5 years later.  Awesome value from Wayne.

And so long as you don't ever compare it with the EE Dac, you can continue to feel that way for a long long time IMHO. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[lcrim]

If bang for buck is what you're after, there is no way you can justify the purchase of another DAC.  The real fact is that the removal of the electrolytic capacitors on the analog outputs of the Touch transforms the unit.
The installation of all the Souncheck's TouchToolbox2.0 along with running on wired ethernet and doing the flac conversion at the server contribute hugely to the quality of the output.   Finally, the addition of a linear power supply contributes to the quality of the sound.  The power supply included w/ the Touch is nowhere near as crappy as the one included w/ the SB3.  But it will help.
The addition of an external DAC will easily triple your costs.  The sound quality would have to triple and that is not possible.  If the external DAC provides better sound quality at all, the fact that the speed of advance in the quality of digital sound should give you pause about the size of your investment.  If you have been doing this for a number of years, the solutions of a few years ago are not even thought about now.  NOS DACs are pretty cheap now that HiRez sound downloads are common.

Larry

[mikecole]

Larry, the problem I have with modding the analog portion of the Touch is that the presentation of the music is just plain boring. I am wondering if a cap change can change something like that. I am all about musical flow. The cap may change the sound somewhat, but I am just not sure what it can do for musical communication. BTW, I just started looking into NOS DACs since that is what my defunct CD player had. Advances in digital technology would make no difference to these DACs since they use "antiquated" DAC chips anyway. The one that looked most promising (at least from the reviews) was the MHDT Paradisea.

[sts9fan]

Also, there are other DACs to consider.  I would make
sure to listen to the EE before buying.  It's not for everyone or the end all
be all of DACs. There are options in the price range. 

[lcrim]

mikecole:
Does it seem likely that I don't listen to music?  Its about repairing a design flaw not a cap change.
The analog mods from Wayne make a large difference and coupled w/ the SW mods by Soundcheck, that are free, its difficult to justify, triple the expenditure for an external DAC. 
From what I gather from the European guys on diy.com and other reports that the new Naim DAC is superior and perhaps that technology will trickle down soon.  The Naim is very expensive and is designed to totally eliminate input jitter. It runs a Sharc processor and has plenty of storage inside. The whole
stream is stored, the sample rate analysed and then reclocked. No PLLs are used just 10 different fixed frequencies.  But it starts north of $3000

So I searched for sensible alternatives.

Larry

[lcrim]

BTW:
I have nothing against the EE DAC, it is a nice piece.  More than that, I've dealt w/ Bill O'Connell in the past and he's a real gentlemen and goes out of his way for a customer like few do.  A class act all the way.
My point is that I personally can't justify the additional cost over what's achieved by the Bolder hardware mods coupled w/ the SW  mods by Soundcheck.  If one is searching for bang for buck, then I voted w/ my largely empty purse.

Larry

[mikecole]

Larry, I guess that is what I was trying to find out, whether the Bolder mods would be enough to satisfy me or whether I would have to go to war with my wife and then cough up cold hard cash for a good DAC. I'll end up doing one or the other, but will probably never know if I made the right decision. At the very least I have bought the Jerome power supply and will get it modded. In fact, I bought two of them due to a minimum purchase caveat at the online store. I will get one modded and the other will just have the power cord installed. I will then get to compare all three to see what kind of differences are heard. I think based on that, I will be better able to decide on ananlog mods or a DAC.

[mikecole]

I think I have decided to get the PS mods done, build up a music server and then let things ride for 6 months to see how I feel about the system. Considering I listen to 90% LPs and 10% CDs, maybe I am just being too picky. For all I know, I may just get used to the sound or I may decide it is good enough since it will probably never reach the sound quality of my analog rig without megabucks being spent. Thanks to everyone for their help.