[mikecole]

I've seen lots of discussion on the modded versus unmodded Touch and discussions on the power supplies, but has anybody compared a modded Touch to an entry level CD player. I just got a Touch and now have about $300-$400 to spend on either upgrades to the Touch or a Marantz CD5004 CD player. My current CD player, a Consonance CD120 Linear, has bit the dust. I was hoping the Touch would equal it or come close, but no cigar. I haven't actually heard the Marantz, but my Consonance was quite a bit better than the Touch (at least from memory). I was kind of wondering whether anybody could compare the Marantz or some other entry level player and the modded Touch. Any good guesses would also be welcome

[bpape]

Adding a better power supply will take it up several notches.  Then the Touch mods itself are capable of several more levels of improvement. 

Bryan

[Phil A]

I'd second the better power supply.  You also might want to consider a DAC.  I bought the Emotiva for the secondary basement system and it is quite good for $299.  You can use both the Touch and the Marantz with a DAC.  I don't have the Touch in the basement system nor have I ever used its analog outs and the digital out has always been connected to my Bryston DAC

[Wayne1]

Saying goodbye to the switching power supply will improve your entire system. Not ony is the switcher adding noise to the power going to the Touch, it is adding noise to everything plugged into your AC line.

For a start, the Jerome Industries power supply will make an improvement well beyond the $10.00 cost Jerome Industries PS The DC connector needs to be changed from the DIN to one that will fit into the Touch. If you have the parts and are handy you can DIY, otherwise send it to me. I also offer mods to improve the internal parts for $100.00.

A free mod is to try out all the software tweaks by Soundcheck. Touch Toolbox 2.0

With those two upgrades, the Touch should sound better than most stock CD players. A ot will depend on what your source material is, what program you used to rip it, what format you ripped the CD to, how you are streaming your files to the Touch and what else your computer is doing.

The analog mods would be the next step for improvement. They will remove quite a few layer of grunge from the sound. To take it up another level, run the digital output to a good DAC. I am partial to the Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC.

As far as comparisons, At RMAF last year, we had the AMR CD-777 in the room along with $40,000.00 worth of vinyl playback gear. On 24/96 tracks, the modded Touch/modded EE DAC combo was far preferred. On 16/44.1 the vinyl might have been a little better, depending on what track. I did prefer the Touch/EE DAC over the AMR.

The analog modded Touch with a very good linear power supply does sound better than any CD spinner I have here, including a rather heavily modded Oppo and some a modded Pioneer Elite.

[poseidonsvoice]

As far as comparisons, At RMAF last year, we had the AMR CD-777 in the room along with $40,000.00 worth of vinyl playback gear. On 24/96 tracks, the modded Touch/modded EE DAC combo was far preferred. On 16/44.1 the vinyl might have been a little better, depending on what track. I did prefer the Touch/EE DAC over the AMR.

The analog modded Touch with a very good linear power supply does sound better than any CD spinner I have here, including a rather heavily modded Oppo and some a modded Pioneer Elite.

Don't know what more of an endorsement you need besides that.

I'm just a happy Bolder customer

Anand.

[lcrim]

I have 2 Bolder analog modded Touches as I have two systems.  I have a regulated, linear power supply for each which go back to when I had a digital modded (by Bolder) SB3 in each system w/ external DACs.  Sold the DACs and went w/ the internal AKM 4420 that the device was designed around,  There is a design flaw that Wayne's mod corrects for, the electrolytic caps on the analog outputs holds the device back.
The Soundcheck sw mods also known as the Touchtoolbox2.0 improve sound quality enormously for free. I stumbled into another improvement by replacing my network cables w/ a wireless backbone which left a 6ft CAT 6 cable to each Touch from each wireless router which run a third party firmware to create the wireless backbone.  In addition, I have my music in flac but send it to the Touch as PCM.  The wlan card is shut off by the Soundcheck mods as is the screen w/ most of that background noise removed.  I can't compare it directly to a CD player as I have'nt had one since I got into PC playback some years back.  The value is totally ridiculous.

[mikecole]

I don't mean to sound like I am bitching and moaning (even though I am), but I am having such a friggen hard time deciding what I want to do - go whole hog into PC audio or hedge my bets and continue with CD spinning. With limited funds, my choices are limited.

I read thru the tools and, except for the single output tweak and the buffer tweak (and maybe the PCM from the PC tweak), everything else seems like it is undoable or undesirable. Seems like the full set of tweaks removes the advantages and desirable features of the Touch. One of the reasons I got the Touch is so I would not have a 15ft. cable running from my PC to my stereo. Now I am thinking that my original plan of getting a CD player with digital input or getting an EE DAC and running a S/PDIF to my PC may have been the better route after all.

Listening to the Internet Radio stations is great. I have no problems at all with the sound quality there, in fact, I like the way it sounds. It "fits" with the radio. I guess I have never expected much from radio stations, so I have never been disappointed

Playing CDs from my PC is the problem. I guess I am kind of spoiled with the quality of sound from my defunct CD player. It was still digital sounding, but it had a good sense of flow and decent tonal color. Most of my music on the PC consists of LPs recorded to HD so I can make CDs for the car.  I am using Media Monkey to convert store bought CDs to FLAC. If a move to dbpoweramp would improve things, I would do that. The analog mods and the Jerome power supply mods are doable.

How would you rate sound quality with these options for playback of CDs:

1. Convert to dbpoweramp, do the anlaog mods, get Jerome power supply and get it modded.
2. Sell Touch, buy EE DAC and switch to dbpoweramp. I would have to hope that 15ft. USB cable would work. I would have to wait a few months before I would be able to afford a USB to S/PDIF converter.
3. Buy Jerome power supply (do cable swap myself) and get the Marantz.

I hate to bother you guys like this, but I have no audiophile type friends and talking to my wife about stereo stuff only elicits wars.

[gjgman]

I'am in a similar situation and considering getting a "music server"
http://www.olive.us/?SSAID=142965

[lcrim]

The Touch is designed as a network music player.  I'm not sure why you would need to use a USB cable but its a possibility.  As configured from the factory, the USB is an input and the firmware running on the Touch would need a SW modification for the USB to function as an output.  The Touch has coaxial and toslink outputs as well as analog outputs so that it can  send a SPDIF stream to a DAC as well as doing the digital conversion itself, depending on your needs.
The configuration I described above is designed to provide the highest quality output, sacrificing some functionality to achieve highest quality playback.
The Touch is designed to connect to a pc or a NAS (Networked Attached Storage) where your ripped music files and the player component (SqueezeBox Server) reside.
It is also possible to conect to that USB input with a Hard Drive that has music files on it and there is an internal player (w/ lowered functionality) that can play back your music.  There is also a built in network card and a wi-fi adapter toconnect to that pc (or NAS) which has your player and music loaded.
I'm not trying to be condescending but perhaps you should do a bit more research online on this subject,

[eclein]

Mike- I have 3 options for playback in my system-1) CD player, 2) Squeezebox DUET with Linear PS to DAC and 3) 15ft. USB cable from my laptop to my DAC, with Waynes help (tips only my budget doesn't let me go mod wild or I would in a heartbeat) I have gotten my computer based playback on par with my CD playback which is through a Virtue Audio Piano M1  and it was no easy task but I got there and now its all about convenience.
 Reading everything here like I do and hearing some of the items listed here's my thoughts...
1) a 15ft USB cable is no big deal-I thought it would be also- I run it from my laptop on a desk back to the wall, along the wall behind my gear plug it in and done. Don't sweat that..
2) I was using Media Monkey Gold until the other day when someone here turned me onto JRiver media center-a lot more options than Media Monkey (I loved Media Monkey) and its like the same price--more for your money with JRiver.
3) The Eastern Electric DAC is a great DAC, I heard one at a gathering and literally turned my head and said "whats that playing right now"
4) dbpoweramp I have not heard but I read that name alot here.
5) The first tip Wayne ever gave me was to use a linear power supply with my DUET-and turned me onto a $15 one and it made a world of difference in a good way.
6) I use my USB setup currently most of the time but....

...if I were starting out and had the budget I would do:
 1) Touch to EE DAC and Linear Power supply (then listen to what you got) and then let Wayne do his thing or as much as your budget can handle its money well spent-his tips work.
 2) The ease of use is fabulous--ipeng is a $10 app for ipod touch that will control your Squeezebox-user interface in the palm of your hand-I use it, excellent app and it gets better as ipeng is adding functionality and can now stream your library to that touch your using to control it so you can playback through your ipod your entire library-great for exercise, etc..
 3) Yuor wife can walk up to the touch and touch the tune she wants, play it, change her mind, play another etc.. with no physical media getting involved..its where this whole thing is headed and the: touch w/PS>EE DAC along with mods you can swing would be my choice.
 Good luck...its great to have options...ask away here!!!

[mikecole]

lcrim, if you are referring to the number 2 option in my post, you must have missed the part where I said I would sell the Touch and ONLY use an EE DAC connected via USB. All my music files and everything on the web is available thru my PC (and then via USB to a DAC), the Touch is just a convenience and a way to avoid having a cable snake across my floor. Plus it is just cool as hell. I think I understand your setup, although I have never heard of daisy chaining two routers wirelessly - cool. I don't see why you would want to blank out your screen. How would you control the Touch without the screen to see what you are doing? The remote control on the website only seems to control volume, so you would not be able to use that. Being able to surf the web and pick out radio stations or things like Pandora and Rhapsody and surf thru my music collection from a little box next to my stereo rig is one of the major advantages to having a Touch ... but you need the screen to do that.

Ed, I had read that the EE DAC had problems locking onto a signal unless the setup was just right, so I figured a USB cable at max length might give it problems. If I had the bucks, I could have bought the EE DAC along with a USB->S/PDIF adapter and that would probably have been OK. If I could afford the DAC and the Touch and the mods, then, yeah, that would be sweet. I had read that dbpoweramp did as good a job of converting CD to FLAC as EAC  and was easier to use. That is why I mentioned it. I don't have anything to compare Media Monkey with and I thought that CD to FLAC may be a weak link in the chain.

[eclein]

Mike...I guess what I was trying to write confused us, I think, If you run a touch you'd be sending your music files via ethernet or wifi to the touch which connects to your system  by itself or using a DAC.
 The other way is to connect your computer to the DAC directly via the 15 ft USB cable.....
easiest thing is to get the touch (I think you got that right), upgrade the power supply-check to see how it sounds then. If still no go, then add the DAC to use from the touch to your system, if that still doesn't do it, look into the 15 ft. USB cable and running your computer directly to the DAC and then to the system.....

 Sounds like the touch is what your hoping to use as the interface, its easy connectivity wise and brings alot of options for UI and signal processing add ons/ins etc...
 Try the PS first and listen.
 then tell us what you like and don't like at that point and you add on as you go....
I was saying if I was doing it now I would use a touch with a DAC then to my system...if you go the 15 ft. USB route to the DAC and take out the Touch in between you loose the ease of use aspect...
 Did I confuse you more...

[lcrim]

mikecole:
Both the screen and the wlan card generate electrical noise.  Yesterday I updated both my units and SBS to 7.6 and as I enabled each of the mods in the toolbar, buffer, analog only outputs,disabling the wlan card and the screen and disabling the internal volume slider the improvement in each case was discernable.  The gain is also cumulative.
BTW, if you open a browser on another pc on the same LAN segment and direct it to the IP address of your SBS and add the port 9000 to the end of the address, you can see the information you are seeking.  If your SBS has the address 192.168.0.5 then put that into the browser http://192.168.0.5:9000, you can view SBS.  Your router should be able to tell you what address your Touch has.
Also there are inexpensive apps for the iphone, the ipad and the ipod touch to control the Touch. 

[bummrush]

I'd go with the Marantz anpd be done the other route you gotta do this ,then you gotta do that on and on and on ,,get a Marantz if you don't like it sell for 200 and you stell come out ahead by finding out what a lower priced playerdoes nowadays.For 300 you get a good player.Nothing wrong with spinning discs,although others think otherwise.

[Phil]

If the cdp has a spdif in, that might be a good option to use with the Touch, assuming the cdp has a better DAC section.  I'm using that setup and find it very versatile.  For a while, my wife used the cdp but has since learned to navigate the Touch from our PC and now uses it that way (she really loves the internet radio but also plays ripped CDs).

In my own setup, the biggest upgrade to the Touch was connecting it to the router/PC via ethernet (that is, hard-wired instead of wireless connection).  Then the software mods were worthwhile.  BTW, as Larry points out, you don't have to use all the mods.  For a while, I didn't use the screen mod (and my wife still doesn't like the fact that I haved turned it off since she likes to know what is playing without looking at the PC screen).

The linear PS was a nice upgrade, perhaps because, as Wayne points out, the digital PS sends noise to your other components.  I'm contemplating Wayne's digital mods but am still wondering what your are:  Do I continue down the Touch-like path or consider the connected-PC path?   

Not sure if any of this helps, but just wanted to mention on alternative.

Good luck. 

Phil

[mikecole]

bummrush, I was thinking about maybe buying the Marantz from AA and using it. If it does not sound any better than the Touch, return it and just go ahead and get the PS and mods done. Of course, there is still the convenience stuff to consider.

lcrim, I tried logging into the IP address of my Touch with port 9000, but IE said it could not open that page. BTW, what exactly would I see? Would I get what I normally see on the touch screen? Would I be able to control it from my PC? If not, could I use the remote and monitor the action of the remote on my PC?

Phil, a CD player with digital in would have been my preference probably, but the ones I was looking at cost anywhere from $800 to a $1000 - out of my budget.

I just downloaded dbpoweramp and ripped a couple of CDs to Flac and compared them with those I ripped using Media Monkey. Sound quality was a definte step up. The Touch sounds better than I thought now. Maybe mods and power supply would put it over the top. A DAC could come later down the road I guess - another money pit this digital stuff.

[lcrim]

If you are on that SBS pc, the address becomes 127.0.0.1:9000 if you are on another pc it woud be as per above.



It is possible to log into the Touch,  but that requires putty or WinSCP and in fact that is where you make mods to the Touch OS.  You'll need to follow Soundcheck's  instructions http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html and http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html

[lcrim]

Re: buying a CD player.  Remember that the Touch can play 24/96 material and a CD player is limited to 16/44.1   Also, a good ripper like dBpoweramp or EAC, will be more accurate than the single read by a CD player.  In my view you are buying yesterday's technology.  Yes there are a some higher rez downloads than 24/96 but the Touch will also read and play 24/192 albeit @ reduced resolution.

[mikecole]

lcrim, then my question still stands. How do you control your Touch if the screen is blanked out?

[Phil]

Mike,

Do you have squeezebox server loaded on your PC?  If so, you control the Touch from your PC.  No need to have a Touch screen.

Larry,
Good point regarding the CD.  Mine has been re-designed and accepts 24/192.

Phil