[Guy 13]

I am not sure if I am posting at the right place, therefore you can move my topic somewhere else where it's more appropriate.

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Just some thoughts I want to share with you.

Why some products that were good when they were first  launched 5-10-15+ years ago and that were produce and sold by the millions of units, suddenly are no good anymore today or do not satisfy anymore the people who bought them ?

A new product supposedly better, improved and more performant is offered, replacing the older product that becomes now obsolete, does that mean that the older products is no good anymore? It becomes no good overnight !
I think not.

However, that’s sometimes the impression I get.
If you choose carefully (Any) product, you will keep it for many years and it will satisfy you for years to come.
Of course there are exceptions, like a lemon car.
(GM Corvair, or Vauxhall…)

Tubes amplifiers with point to point wiring is a good example of a good investment, which in my opinion have a life span of up to 50 years, which mans that even if the same manufacturer comes with a new more efficient, better designed unit, your purchase will still be a good investment and will performed as good as when you bought it and for the reason you bought it.

Why should you not be happy with your purchase that is now obsolete or out of style or of old technology, what as changed since the time you bought it?

To keep up with all the latest technology, with the improved performances and with the latest gadgets these days, it will cost you mucho $ $ $.

With all the money I spend on the past on trying to keep up with the new and more advanced cameras, (Photography is my favorite hobby with audio stuff) I could have today lots of $ $ $ invested in my retirement fund, but unfortunately, I did not do that, when I was young, many years back, I wanted the latest technology, therefore, because of that, I will have to work until I am 70, 75 or maybe even until I am 80 years old… This is a fact.

Maybe I am a nostalgic man, but I do like older products, even if they don’t have all the latest gadgets and bells and whistle and are not of the latest technology. 

Why do people always want to have the latest in technology and style, etc… ? Computers, cell phones, TV, etc…

What’s wrong with old stuff, if it works right and still does what it was doing when you bought it and you are happy with it?
Always wanting to have the best and the latest and keep up with the Jones is to me like a disease…

Please don’t get me wrong, I am not against new technology, I would not imagine myself still watching black & white television and my next TV will be a high resolution flat screen TV.

I know that the manufacturer cannot produce old stuff if there is not demand for it and still producing that old stuff in minimal quantities would make their prices prohibitive.

Think what you want, but this is my opinion, as always:
For what it’s worth.
Guy 13

Note:
Maybe one or several Audio Circle members agree with me and would like to add something to the above using different words.

[dB Cooper]

Go to the Audio by Van Alstine website and download the Audio Basics newsletters. In one of the early ones , he discusses something he calls the "Wonderful today, trash tomorrow syndrome". Well worth a read; it's exactly what you are talking about.

[Elizabeth]

Human beings in Western consumer cultures have been conditioned to 'want' new stuff in order to continue to sell new stuff  to keep the  system running: IE: factories make stuff, folks buy stuff, factories make stuff, pay workers so they can buy stuff.. Cuurrently this cycle is busted: IE a economic depression.
So that is the reason all sorts of stuff has new models...
Always refered to as 'better' than the old ones. (whether true or not.. and often not true..)
For those few able to see beyond the hype, that old stuff has a good value.

[Wayner]

Human beings in Western consumer cultures have been conditioned to 'want' new stuff in order to continue to sell new stuff  to keep the  system running: IE: factories make stuff, folks buy stuff, factories make stuff, pay workers so they can buy stuff.. Cuurrently this cycle is busted: IE a economic depression.
So that is the reason all sorts of stuff has new models...
Always refered to as 'better' than the old ones. (whether true or not.. and often not true..)
For those few able to see beyond the hype, that old stuff has a good value.

That's an odd view of world marketing. Consumers have wants and manufacturers fulfill these wants because that is what the people want and buy. In the old days of tubes, people were sick of replacing tubes and transistor came into play. No more tube changing. Was it better? They didn't have to replace tubes.

We used to have "A" drives on our computers that could hold a couple of megabytes, now, we have terabyte drives. Why? because consumers wanted more storage space, and they wanted it faster, so we have it.

Marketing is like the fairly god mother that delivers what you want. It's not an evil plot (for the most part), but a capitalistic adventure.

Since the world now is way beyond hunter/gatherers, we need things to do, and a way to make money, so we make stuff. Soon we become bored with stuff and we want different stuff. Not the same stuff in a different box, but better stuff in a different box, and so the world goes.

BTW, my portfolio increased by 11 percent this year in what you call an economic depression. My parents and their parents lived through it, and they were happy to have a meal a day, and sometimes it was bullhead soup.

Wayner

[orthobiz]

Still have my Linn Sondek, my Dahlquists and all my records!

Paul

[Diamond Dog]

That's an odd view of world marketing. Consumers have wants and manufacturers fulfill these wants because that is what the people want and buy.
Since the world now is way beyond hunter/gatherers, we need things to do, and a way to make money, so we make stuff. Soon we become bored with stuff and we want different stuff. Not the same stuff in a different box, but better stuff in a different box, and so the world goes.

BTW, my portfolio increased by 11 percent this year in what you call an economic depression.
Wayner

Yes, but...
I've worked in market research and marketing for most of my life and while I agree that manufacturers profit by recognising and fulfilling consumers' wants and needs, there is also no shortage of situations where consumers are being pitched things which they had no idea they "needed" prior to the pitch. Nor is there any shortage of repackaging the same old / same old and shooting it out into the marketplace again. The audio industry is certainly no exception.

Nice to hear that your portfolio is faring well in these trying times. Give thanks ( as I'm sure you do ). There are many who are not faring as well and not through any fault of their own. Perspective is everything.

D.D.

 

[Wayner]

I believe as you grow older (and hopefully wiser) sales pitch things become more obvious. At my age, less has become more and to a large degree, I appreciate your comment. But I put a separation between manufacturing and marketing. I've been in several companies where those 2 groups are at odds with each other. The manufacturing people are proud of their accomplishments (which I am a part of) and they look at the marketing people as the devil.

There is a separation between marketing a real viable product, and marketing hype. One is an excitement from the heart, like many audio companies here that are excited about their new products and the work they have done to bring it to market. The other group is wrapped in deception and spinning the facts, truth and otherwise into a cloud of false hope and illusion.

Like the guys that advertise on TV that they want to help you get out of debt. The real truth is, they want to help you out of your money. There are many scams out there and these types of business practices give the marketing concept a bad name. Business is not the evil galactic empire bent on destroying your financial goals, but left out of control and solely in the hands of marketing fanatics that have no soul, are the sponge cakes of the world.

Wayner

[Quiet Earth]

Guy,

I think your post is very good and I agree with the gist of it. The only thing I would add is that this is a hobby, and as a hobbyist  I think that it's healthy to wonder what else there is. This doesn't mean that the good stuff you own is suddenly no good. It just means that you are willing to explore the next level. No marketing pressure is making your gear obsolete.

Cell phones?,,, well, that's a different story . . . . 

Wayner,,,,,,  fantastic post man. Totally agree with you.

[baldrick]

A few years ago in a popular audio magazine they took some vintage gear that was well reviewed as being state of the art for its time and put it up against modern products of similar design and market level.
The vintage gear was all serviced and operating within specification, just to keep things fair.
They did a preamp and power amp.

The results were pretty much what I expected.  While the vintage gear was perfectly acceptable and good sounding it in no way challenged the new gear for musicality, transparency, tightness, pace, rhythm, etc etc.  You get the picture...
If there were no progress in quality then buying new stuff would be just for the sake of it.
The car industry is a case in point:  the worst car you can buy in 2011 is still better than the best car you could buy in 1985.

[Letitroll98]

I think there's some fallacy in your presumption there baldrick.  Wouldn't you agree that the audio rag might have a vested interest in keeping the image of newer is better alive?  No where else on this site, and many others, are the opinions of audio rags held in much esteem, so why in this case?  And would you say a 2011 Kia Optima is a better car than a 1985-Lamborghini Countach?

My point is not to pick on you, which I did a bit, sorry, I hope you can forgive my insolence.  But to point out that Elizabeth and Guy are correct, consumers are brainwashed into thinking newer is better.  Of course most consumer based cars are much better than their counterparts from years ago, as are TVs and digital cameras etc.  But is a new digital camera better than a Large Format Linhof in image quality?  Not even close.  Can any Kia bring you the excitement of a Lamborghini, I think not.  What I'm getting at is that if you have a very fine piece of equipment from yesteryear, it is not de facto outclassed by anything newer.   

[Quiet Earth]

Not de facto,  but certainly possible. For example, I think that speakers in general have come a long way in the last 30 years.

similar design and market level

With this in mind, of course.

[thunderbrick]

But to point out that Elizabeth and Guy are correct, consumers are brainwashed into thinking newer is better.  Of course most consumer based cars are much better than their counterparts from years ago, as are TVs and digital cameras etc.  But is a new digital camera better than a Large Format Linhof in image quality?  Not even close. 

As a digital photographer, they can have my Linhof when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers, BUT, the market, and peoples' expectations have changed.  Same with audio.  Not unlike compressed music files or shitty satellite signals, people are willing to trade sound quality for convenience.  Same with photography. I believe the traditional wedding photography market has largely collapsed because people will jump on a cheap price for something they can email, instead of the huge coffee-table albums.  (NOTE: I am not ignoring the fact that fewer marriages last as long these days. Maybe they figure "what the hell, it may not last anyway, so why spend a bundle?")   

There are some people that do great things with digital, but I think the percentage of dreck has gone WAY up.  Same with music and audio quality, I guess.

Hmmmmm, do i sound like my father?   

[TONEPUB]

Yeah, I'll remember to break out the linhof when I need to get about 100 product shots done in a week.

Man you guys are black and white.

There's a lot of great vintage gear out there and there have been good advances as well.  I've made it a point to assemble a few of the systems I used to listen to 10, 20, even 30 years ago.  They are still very enjoyable, but no where near the performance of what's in my ref system today.

It's ok wherever you are on the path....

[Guy 13]

Guy,

I think your post is very good and I agree with the gist of it. The only thing I would add is that this is a hobby, and as a hobbyist  I think that it's healthy to wonder what else there is. This doesn't mean that the good stuff you own is suddenly no good. It just means that you are willing to explore the next level. No marketing pressure is making your gear obsolete.

Cell phones?,,, well, that's a different story . . . . 

Wayner,,,,,,  fantastic post man. Totally agree with you.

Hi all Audio Circle members.
Manufacturers are in business to make money and stay in business.

The manufacturers will come up with everything and anything to extend the life of products.

Often, it’s not really to improve the performances of the product, but to keep or increase sales of that product, because designing and launching new products is costly.

When they have exhausted all to possibilities of improving the product and they run out of imagination, then, they throw at you a new product that is supposedly better, sometime it is, but not always.

What about the people like me, which is happy with the old stuff they have?

Well I will keep my old stuff and wish that the manufacturer will keep producing repair parts.

Of course I am not against some new products like the CD ROM and USB key that have replaced the old diskette (Floppy disk), the iPad is useful for some people, as for me, I can live without it, mind you, if the price was around 100 USD I might buy one to store some picture that I will later share with others.

Cellular phone that is getting smaller and smaller, that’s not for me, as I get older it’s a real problem for me to see the screen and the touches.

I know it would not make much sense for me to buy and drive my favorite car, the Ford Thunderbird 1963 because it a gas guzzler and a big polluter.

Is the older stuff like a receiver from HH Scott or Fisher…

Better than today’s solid state units, maybe yes, maybe no,

But often, it is repairable as for the solid state stuff, often it’s too labor intensive to repair and then find it’s way to the dump, land fill. Therefore, changing tube after 1,000 to 5,000 hours to me make more sense than trying to repair solid state amplifier, especially the cheaper one, the hi mass consumer units that is from the early technology and the parts are not manufactured anymore. An old receiver amplifier from the 60s is still repairable and parts are still available, that makes sense in many ways, one less unit that will find his way in the land fill, one unit that won’t be produce to replace this unit…

That’s a life span of 50 years, to me, that makes lots of sense.

For the ones that think jobs will be lost, well most of the solid state stuff comes from Asia; therefore not really any jobs will be lost… Buy audio from USA its good and it keep Americans working. I am from Canada and the same can apply.

Good marketing will brain wash you to buy new products without you knowing it, therefore you don’t feel the pressure, plus marketing is everywhere and goes in your brain when you are young and all your live, it’s part of the culture…

Everybody is still free of buying vintage or old technology audio equipment, that’s a personal choice and as long as vintage audio will be available, I will buy it, because in the 60s manufacturers like Fisher, Scott, Harman Kardon, Mc Intosh and Marrantz made products to last, not to be replace after only a few years to force the consumers to buy again… 

I am happy to see that there are still plenty of tubes amplifiers still around and available and repairable. I can still practice my nostalgia for a few more decades or until I die.
Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Yeah, I'll remember to break out the linhof when I need to get about 100 product shots done in a week.

Man you guys are black and white.

There's a lot of great vintage gear out there and there have been good advances as well.  I've made it a point to assemble a few of the systems I used to listen to 10, 20, even 30 years ago.  They are still very enjoyable, but no where near the performance of what's in my ref system today.

It's ok wherever you are on the path....

Hi TONEPUB and all Audio Circle members.
I use to own a Cambo 4X5" large format camera, I had to sell it because here in Vietnam, I could not buy films and get them processed, that happened when the digital (Revolution) Tsunami the film market.

The same thing happened with my medium format 645E from Mamiya,
I  have now not much choice and shot all my pictures with my Nikon D200 and the marketters would like me to up-grade my DSLR for a D3 or the sme, well, I hang on to that camera, until one day when it won't be repairable anymore, then, I won't have much choice other than open my wallet and get mucho green ones to up grade.
 
Of course new cameras are better, sharper, more automatic, but when I bought my Nikon D-200 I was happy with it, it did exactly want I was expecting and it still does, regardless of all the improvement in digital picture quality of all teh new cameras.

My Nikon D-200 is not a working tool for me, therefore I don't need the best of the best.

Here in Vietnam, I am the exclusive distributor for Phase One medium format camera.
I could get one 60mpix camera at manufacturer's price, but for me, its a matter of being happy with what I can afford, not to buy the latest to impress friends and keep up with the Jones...
Guy 13 

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.

I am looking for a vintage all tubes receiver.
(Amplifier/FM stereo tuner)
HH Scott, Fisher 500/800C, Marrantz, McIntosh, Harman Kardon.

The following specs are what I would really like to have:
Illuminated ruler type tuning dial.

FM stereo or AM/FM stereo.
Tuning meter (Or magic eye) and signal strength meter.
Headphones output jack.
15 to 35 wpc output.
RCA tape loop output.
RCA - MM cartridge input.
Fully restored and (All) capacitors replaced with new ones.
Original tubes if they test good.
Wood cabinet preferred or metal housing acceptable.

Can someone direct me somewhere where I can buy from someone that restore the units he sell, unless it’s in mint condition, but even then, if the unit is 40 years + old, it will need some kind of overall.

I might settle for a tuner only, instead of a receiver, since I already have a Single ended Niteshade Audio tube amplifier.
Thanks.
Guy 13
 

[rollo]

  Guy Maplshade sells refurbished Scott gear. Highly reccommended.


charles

[ArthurDent]

Can someone direct me somewhere where I can buy from someone that restore the units he sell, unless it’s in mint condition, but even then, if the unit is 40 years + old, it will need some kind of overall.

I might settle for a tuner only, instead of a receiver, since I already have a Single ended Niteshade Audio tube amplifier.
Thanks.
Guy 13
 

Guy 13, you should probably 'talk' to doug s. here (on AC). Of the many knowledgeable folks on AC, from my reading he's the main tuna, vintage receiver guy. He'll probably pop in before long with some input. 

[Pez]

When you hear something that just sounds better, you cannot unhear it. Simple as that.

I had an amazing highly modded by a very respected modder push pull tube amp. It was splendid. I couldn't imagine better sound. I needed an amplifier for my tweeter since I'm triamping so I built one. Just for grins I hooked it up to my speakers with passive crossover in place and it sounded unbelievably good. A lot better than the highly modded amp and I mean A LOT better. So I sold the highly modded PP and used the funds to make another amp.

It's not that the other amp was 'no good' it's that something else shifted my tastes so extremely that I could no longer appreciate the other amp.

[Quiet Earth]

When you hear something that just sounds better, you cannot unhear it. Simple as that.

+1