[Roger A. Modjeski]

Hi, I am on my second customer (and member here ) who has been screwed by a modifier of some repute in the industry (though not by my opinion)

Here's my opinion: Modifiers are people who think they can improve on something they didn't design, couldn't design and don't usually understand. They usually charge a lot for what they do and more than times than not I have to put things right again.  They often put the expensive components where they do no good while missing the place they would do most good.

That's my opinion, Id like to hear yours and please vote.

[eclein]

I think you need to modify your poll...a question can't be a choice in the poll, and the title of the thread has modifiers spelled wrong--you have modidfiers.
Sometimes making modifications works out really well....but hey I could be wrong.

edit--your mods didn't quite work out well on the poll...I don't think...sorry...I'm not trying to be a jerk..honestly....

[satfrat]

Boy did this topic hit home Roger. While I've never been a customer of yours, my butt has been painfully abused for over a year and a half now from a wellknown business who still has my brand new subwoofer amp that had been modded but ended up adding feedback into my system and who the modder agreed to undo the mod and return the amp to stock. It's been over a year and a half since he's had my amp and he still hasn't found the time to do what he said he would. Take in account that I've done thousands of dollars worth of purchases with this business which evidently means nothing to this individual,,,,
 
$600 amp with a $150 internal cable attached, with another $600 in mods and to date, I'm out $1350 while he still has my brand new amp. Does that qualify me as having been screwed, especially considering I've basically stayed silent.  That's my story, names have been omitted to protect the guilty. 
 
Thankfully I still have my ACI Force XL in my system. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Boy did this topic hit home Roger. While I've never been a customer of yours, my butt has been painfully abused for over a year and a half now from a wellknown business who still has my brand new subwoofer amp that had been modded but ended up adding feedback into my system and who the modder agreed to undo the mod and return the amp to stock. It's been over a year and a half since he's had my amp and he still hasn't found the time to do what he said he would. Take in account that I've done thousands of dollars worth of purchases with this business which evidently means nothing to this individual,,,,
 
$600 amp with a $150 internal cable attached, with another $600 in mods and to date, I'm out $1350 while he still has my brand new amp. Does that qualify me as having been screwed, especially considering I've basically stayed silent.  That's my story, names have been omitted to protect the guilty. 
 
Thankfully I still have my ACI Force XL in my system. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

Robin,

Thanks you for telling your story. I want people to hear this loud and clear. If you care to name names go ahead and let others know who to stay away from.

My point of view is they are all bad news, I haven't heard of one good one yet.

[satfrat]

 

• We have a no dirty laundry policy, which says that while a few disagreements on a site such as this are expected and normal, you can't bring fights here that are nothing to do with this site.

 

[Roger A. Modjeski]

 

• We have a no dirty laundry policy, which says that while a few disagreements on a site such as this are expected and normal, you can't bring fights here that are nothing to do with this site.

 

I have no idea what you mean. What do you see as disagreements,  I am not interested in any kind of fight.

[satfrat]

It's a link to the posting AC guideline rules, click onto it and read them. 

[Roger A. Modjeski]

It's a link to the posting AC guideline rules, click onto it and read them. 

I read them and have written John R for his guidance. In the meantime I hope everyone behaves as nicely as you always have in the past.

If someone here wants to name names in spirit of preventing harm to others is that a bad thing? I believe members can and do name companies who have given them bad service, why not modifiers? Hey, I've suffered a few complaints and taken them to heart.

[rbwalt]

if by naming names we can prevent someone else from getting screwed  then it is alright with me.maybe then those vendors and or manufacturers will get their you know what together.

rob.

[rbwalt]

 i must add i have had my line stage( joule electra) modified. it was done by joule electra(jud barber) and it was well worth it. the mod was done with great professionalism and in a timely manner.

rob.

[Russtafarian]

I don't see "I've modified my own gear" as a poll option.  I feel left out.

[Photon46]

I've had two power amps that were modified by a well known modifier and the results were a mixed bag. The performance of both amps were very much audibly improved but the workmanship in one example was not up to my expected standards of craftsmanship. Things like sloppy circuit board standoff mounting, burrs in the sheet metal where holes were drilled, inadequate toroid retainers, etc. 

[rbwalt]

here are some  questions one should ask if they don't when having a piece of gear modified or upgraded(major).

1. who is doing it and what kind of experience does he have.
2. what kind of parts and make( wire, caps, etc.) are being used.
3. how long has the mod been in the works.
4. what speakers  was the mod voiced on.
5. what  speaker wire, interconnects were used.
6. always tell whom ever is doing the mod( 3rd party or manufacturer)the equipment  you have and what are you expectations are.

i know many do take these into account but there might be some who don't. i have seen pics of amps here on audio circle  that have been butchered. no doubt by junior engineers( guys who think they are engineers or techs because they have a little knowledge and a soldering iron.

r.

[chadh]

I can see both sides of this debate.  It reminds me of an exchange a few years ago on AC between a prominent AC manufacturer and a prominent AC modder.  The modder wished to modify a pair of the manufacturer's amps, and contacted the manufacturer for some reason (perhaps simply to ask for his blessing).  The manufacturer made it clear that he disapproved of the effort, and threw down a challenge.  The manufacturer claimed that changing the value of a single resistor or capacitor or some such thing would improve the performance of the amps significantly, and asked the modder if he could suggest which component could be changed.  The modder declined to rise to this challenge, and consequently the manufacturer dismissed the modder's efforts as misguided. 

I think this sort of experience supports Roger's claim that modders often?  at times?  occasionally? don't really know what they are doing.  But it doesn't mean that the modder has nothing of value to offer.  In the case of the particular modder involved above, we're talking about a guy who has modified things for MANY of the people who have visited AC over the years (including myself).  His work has met with overwhelming levels of satisfaction.  He seems to be a thorough experimenter, rather than a designer like Roger; but many believe that his efforts make real and significant improvements in the performance of their gear.  Moreover, his reputation for taking care of his customers is fabulous.  In my several dealings with him (only some of which were regarding modifications) he's really established himself as someone who wants to leave his customers satisfied.

Undoubtedly, there are less scrupulous modders out there - and in the event that someone sends something to Roger to fix, it's obviously a case where the modder has (a) not produced something to the liking of the customer; and (b) failed to stand behind the product adequately.  But these characteristics are ones that are potentially exhibited by designers and producers of NEW products as well.  There are certainly modders I would never get to work on my gear (certain advertisers on Audiogon spring to mind, whose modifications always seem to have exactly the same effects on the huge range of gear they modify, and always involve the flavor of the month boutique parts).  But there are also manufacturers I would never deal with because I don't get the impression they know what they're doing, either.

The thing I take from all of this is that reputation is valuable.  Music Reference has a reputation for producing gear with high quality sound and high quality engineering, and for many that's worth paying for.  You can save a few dollars, and try to get the same quality from a modder,  but it's like buying a lottery ticket:  you might get lucky, and you might not.  The more information you can get to convince you that the modder stands behind his work, the better a risk the modifications become.  But once the reputation is established, those modifications will also start to attract higher prices.

Chad

[Scottdazzle]

I am a Music Reference fan as well as a Modwright fan.  While I understand and appreciate Roger's point of view, my Modwright modified Sony 9100 universal disc player is a vast improvement over any stock player I've heard.  Two thumbs up for Roger and Dan. 

[rbwalt]

how much did you spend for the player and the mod? any stock player? in what price range are we talking?

r.

ps. that is a pretty bold statement.

[Roger A. Modjeski]

Thanks to all for sharing your experiences. If someone has developed a mod for a specific product that he has done over and over with good results then I'm all for it. The ones that scare me are the modders who will take on something they have never seen and change out bunch of parts.

[cujobob]

I purchased a piece of gear that came modified - Lite DAC 60 with mods from Sonicraft...wonderful DAC!  I've had some other gear modified as well...mostly just caps and such, replacing cheap caps with good caps.  I'd shy away from anything too major...at that point..just buy a piece that is designed better!

[Roger A. Modjeski]

I wonder just how much changing to these super-duper caps really makes a difference.

[Elizabeth]

I have always shied away from mods done by folks other than the original builders.
Mods like for the Counterpoint series done by the original owner, fine.
Or some small manufacturer upgrading his own products.
But all the small modders out there. i cannot personally see trusting someone to be capable of improving a product just because they say they can.
And a few infomercial type recommendations on the internet really are not proof it is good.
Then the resale value? it is never going to be worth more, (unless you luck into a person crazy for the mod anyway)
Then repair? who is then qualified to repair a modded unit?
And what if it fails, is the mod the cause, and who could determine that? No thanks, Ill stick to standard products.
Added: I wonder if folks who go for mods think the grass can be greener 'if only' like somehow they can 'cheat' on paying for an actually superior product.
Then. also THAT is my take on the folks offering mods who actually are not qualified to do them. The Mod sellers are counting on the desire of the person getting the mod wanting basically something expensive for less.
(I KNOW some modders are not of this type, but the problem is how does a customer know? Like I said, a few internet infomercials from satisfied customers does not cut it)