What's typically better, Bi-amping or adding more power

Rod_S · « **on:** 22 Mar 2011, 11:42 am »

I have a question as the title states as someone I know is thinking about getting another amp to bi-amp his speakers. The amps are not Bryston's but the power ratings are similar, they are Classe CA-2300 (300 watt x 2). He is thinking about getting a 2nd CA-2300 and I am curious what would be better, getting the 2nd CA-2300 or perhaps going with a higher power amp, in his case it would be 2 CA-M600 mono blocks at 600 watts each.

So for arguments sake, say we were talking Bryston here, what would make more sense, using 2 4B-SST² for bi-amping or going with more power and use either a 14B-SST² or 2 7B-SST²?

This also got me thinking, I currently have a 4B-SST powering my mains, if I were to bi-amp how detrimental would it be to add a 4B-SST² as my 2nd amp, are the specs so different that doing this would not be reccommended? I do have 2 4B-SST amps, one original design and one C Series so I assume if I were to try bi-amping it would be best to use those and just use the new 4B-SST² to fill in for my rears surrounds?

Thanks,

Rod

mclsound · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 12:41 pm »

Hi Rod
been there,done that with both Bryston(14bsst-4bsst) and Classe(Ca-300/400)and Simaudio(7ch Titan) and Krell(KSA 250,300s) and in different combinations..
Now having said that I find that without a active crossover and only going directly through the ""Speakers Crossover""..Stick with one big amp..
AND
Monoblocks are even better.
You loooooose alot using mutiple amps on a single factory passive speaker.
Just my experiences.
And I was using:
Paradigm(Studio 40/60)
PMC(MB2,IB2,IB1)

Napalm · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 02:03 pm »

When the rubber hits the road there's nothing like more engine displacement.

Nap.

JLM · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 02:40 pm »

Separate amplifiers for bass and mid/treble is always preferred as it would turn your speakers from passive into active (or at least semi-active) designs.

I heard Paradigm Studio 20 versus Paradigm Active 20 about 10 years ago (these are very similar small two-way standmounts) and there was no comparison. The Actives had much greater dynamics, much flatter frequency response, and unbelievable deep/full bass. It was definitely in the top five of my lifetime audio epiphanies.

JRace · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 02:49 pm »

As MCLSOUND stated, unless your able to bypass the passive xover in the speakers your better off with a larger amp, rather than 2 amps.

What speakers?

Rod_S · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 02:56 pm »

Thanks for the quick replies.

The speakers he is using are the new B&W 802 Diamonds.

Diamond Dog · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 02:59 pm »

Hi Rod : I'm with mclsound and Nap on this one. I was bi-amping in my last system ( one amp for lows and one identical amp for mids / highs ) and went to monos with much more power - the difference in sound quality was huge. HUGE... Most at my listening is done at volumes which would not exactly blow your hair back but the increase in wattage and switching to monoblocks made a big difference in low-level listening as well.

D.D.

Rod_S · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 04:59 pm »

So far 4:1 (or is it 5:0 and JLM is just describing why it works so well in a true active design, I wasn't sure) in favor of more power citing the effect passive crossovers have over the distribution of the power from separate amps not being as effective as just feeding the speakers more power. Is that more or less the gist of it? And with more power an added benefit of extra depth, detail, etc. at lower levels? I recall this being mentioned a lot when the 28B-SST was released, how well it made listening at low levels sound.

Thanks guys.

woodsyi · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 05:12 pm »

Not quite 4:1. If you are going to bi-amp, you must use active crossover to get the most out of this configuration. If you are going through the passive filters, more juice is better. Think of filter network as a necessary "impediment" for good music. You need more juice poured into that bottleneck (filters) to get a smooth and steady flow out.

That's the way I read the previous comments. I personally actively tri-amp. So my vote would be to go active bi-amping -- you need not just an extra amp but an active crossover as well. Getting rid of those big caps and coils really open the flow.

Rod_S · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 05:24 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 22 Mar 2011, 05:12 pm

Not quite 4:1. If you are going to bi-amp, you must use active crossover to get the most out of this configuration. If you are going through the passive filters, more juice is better. Think of filter network as a necessary "impediment" for good music. You need more juice poured into that bottleneck (filters) to get a smooth and steady flow out.

That's the way I read the previous comments. I personally actively tri-amp. So my vote would be to go active bi-amping -- you need not just an extra amp but an active crossover as well. Getting rid of those big caps and coils really open the flow.

Thanks, so the choice is basically made for you then if one's speakers are of a passive design such as my friends 802 Diamonds, well unless you want to take the speaker apart so the passive crossover can be bypassed allowing for the use of an active one? So passive = add more power and don't bi-amp/tri-amp while active = use separate amps i.e bi-amp or tri-amp to get the best results.

Napalm · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 05:28 pm »

Quote from: Rod_S on 22 Mar 2011, 04:59 pm

So far 4:1 (or is it 5:0 and JLM is just describing why it works so well in a true active design, I wasn't sure) in favor of more power citing the effect passive crossovers have over the distribution of the power from separate amps not being as effective as just feeding the speakers more power. Is that more or less the gist of it? And with more power an added benefit of extra depth, detail, etc. at lower levels?

Depends on what you want to fix, the main two problems being:

1) poorly designed speaker crossover network
2) insufficient current delivery on low impedance (especially in the bass region)

If your problem is 1) then bi-amping may help, but you may as well replace the speakers with better ones.

If your problem is 2) then the cure is a bigger amp.

Nap.

rollo · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 05:46 pm »

the issue of biAmping raises some questions. First off the amps should be the same, meaning gain and impedance. Then a well designed active crossover must be used.
the benifits of not straining the amp or speaker with full frequency range production is always a good thing. Saying that the crossover plays a critical role. To date other than a Bryston 10B all actives have had a negative affect on the sound. Just to Hi Fi sounding.
So in the end if you are willing to do it right don't bother. No easy way out. For me a 28B would cure any need for biamping. But thats me. have fun trying.

charles

Sasha · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 06:03 pm »

Although logic may dictate that it would be beneficial to bi-amp or tri-amp even with passive cross-over in the path, my experience was that one large amp is better than mixture of amps.
Admittedly amps I was trying were not the same, mixture of 4B SST and 7B SST. Not sure what the result would be if all of the amps were the same, obviously all of those I tried had the same input sensitivity/gain, belonged to the same series, so I am not sure what was at play here.
I tried that on PMC IB2S.
Active cross-over is altogether different story, no comparison, far better than passive.

JLM · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 07:45 pm »

I use active speakers (single driver designs with monoblocks

).

I'm all for having enough power to provide a commanding grip on the drivers. Resolution and imaging improves and when I upgraded my monoblocks from 40 to 100 watts it sounded like a properly dialed in sub (that you only hear when it's needed) had been added (very worthwhile).

But the advantages of allowing one channel of amplification to "directly see" the simple load of a single driver is even bigger, especially if you find good synergy between amp and driver. The amp can better react with the simple reactive load of the driver. But this requires an active crossover, like a Behringer DCX2496 that the Orion speakers use.

Again, if carefully done, you could mix and match amplifiers. After all your woofer probably doesn't look/function exactly like your tweeter, right?

Elizabeth · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 08:16 pm »

Theories aside. The advantage of biamping is not as great as using one twice as good amp.
If you consider the cost of adding another amp, extra cabling and the cost of a good external crossover, the added quality of one stereo, or a pair of monoblocks is higher than the added quality of biamping.
In my opinion, biamping is a newbie fantasy. So very many questions are put forth in all the audio sites about biamping. I think people want more, then well the 'easiest' more is to add another amp... yeah cool. That is really not very simple.
Take it from old bags and old farts who have been around for a long time. Biamping is a P.I.T.A.
Biamping can be done well, but it is a hard task to accomplish.
And usually works best with a tube amp on top and a ss on the bottom and a lot of fiddling to get it right with an external crossover using big expensive speakers.
The reality is 95% of the folks wanting to biamp are way better off buying a better amp. bigger AND better, instead of another one the same. And selling the original amp.
I would go so far as to say anyone wanting to biamp who has not been into stereo for 20 years, or has a boatload of money to throw at it, should forget biamping totally.
So in reality the easiest and best way to kick ass sound is to get a bigger AND better amp and sell the old one. Period. Sincerely.
Good luck

JLM · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Mar 2011, 09:30 pm »

So Elizabeth, don't pull any punches, just tell how you really feel.

She's right, it can quickly become a mess, unless someone has gone down the road before you. Follow what the vendor recommends. If they haven't tried it, think hard about why not and why you bought them in the first place.

With active speakers the vendor has matched amps to drivers. Audiophiles want to do their own hunting and so shy away.

Anonamemouse · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Mar 2011, 08:49 am »

Quote from: Napalm on 22 Mar 2011, 05:28 pm

Depends on what you want to fix, the main two problems being:

1) poorly designed speaker crossover network
2) insufficient current delivery on low impedance (especially in the bass region)

If your problem is 1) then bi-amping may help, but you may as well replace the speakers with better ones.

If your problem is 2) then the cure is a bigger amp.

Nap.

Uhm... Actually...
If your problem is 1) then find someone who builds his own loudspeakers, who has the equipment to measure your current system and has the knowledge to custom build a crossover that actually works and is perfected towards both your loudspeakers and your room. Even VERY expensive loudspeakers (think B&W 802D here...) have el cheapo crap inside. They can do that because the el cheapo crap is out of sight, and 99% of their customers don´t have a clue anyway. They reason because they spent a small fortune they bought something perfect.

If your problem is 2) then find someone who builds his own loudspeakers, who has the equipment to measure your current system and has the knowledge to custom build a crossover that actually works. A bigger amp is always good too.

Moral: Cure the problem, not the symptoms.

Rod_S · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Mar 2011, 05:19 pm »

Thanks for all the comments, they were very informative.

audioman999 · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Mar 2011, 07:39 pm »

another spin on the topic:

I have a B100SST and was under the impression that adding an additional amp, 3SST or 4BSST in a biamped configuration was to greatly improve the sound.

Would i be better off just using the B100SST as a pre amp only and just using the power of the 4BSST?

Am i actually at a disadvantage using the B100SST for the hi's and the 4BSST for the lo's.

Thanks

PRELUDE · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 Mar 2011, 12:49 am »

Quote from: Rod_S on 22 Mar 2011, 11:42 am

I have a question as the title states as someone I know is thinking about getting another amp to bi-amp his speakers. The amps are not Bryston's but the power ratings are similar, they are Classe CA-2300 (300 watt x 2). He is thinking about getting a 2nd CA-2300 and I am curious what would be better, getting the 2nd CA-2300 or perhaps going with a higher power amp, in his case it would be 2 CA-M600 mono blocks at 600 watts each.

So for arguments sake, say we were talking Bryston here, what would make more sense, using 2 4B-SST² for bi-amping or going with more power and use either a 14B-SST² or 2 7B-SST²?

This also got me thinking, I currently have a 4B-SST powering my mains, if I were to bi-amp how detrimental would it be to add a 4B-SST² as my 2nd amp, are the specs so different that doing this would not be reccommended? I do have 2 4B-SST amps, one original design and one C Series so I assume if I were to try bi-amping it would be best to use those and just use the new 4B-SST² to fill in for my rears surrounds?

Thanks,

Rod

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm