Picccolo - sensitive to electrical interference

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Aerobat

Picccolo - sensitive to electrical interference
« on: 19 Mar 2011, 04:04 pm »
My Piccolo is super-sensitive to electrical interference - I can't turn on a light in the room without a jolt coming through the speakers.  And that's with it running on batteries.  It's connected to a Bugle running off the Hagerman PS, and everything is plugged into a Monster power conditioner.  I don't get the interference running straight into the Bugle.  I'm using shielded cables and the Piccolo is in the stock aluminum case.

Is anyone else having this problem?  The unit is great otherwise.

Mark


poty

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Re: Picccolo - sensitive to electrical interference
« Reply #1 on: 19 Mar 2011, 09:43 pm »
I don't have such combo, but it seems you have very long chain up to the point where all your Piccolo - Bugle - preamp are grounding.

Aerobat

Re: Picccolo - sensitive to electrical interference
« Reply #2 on: 20 Mar 2011, 09:22 pm »
I don't have such combo, but it seems you have very long chain up to the point where all your Piccolo - Bugle - preamp are grounding.

The TT is grounded to the Piccolo.  The Piccolo and Bugle are grounded to the PS board.  The PS board and its case are grounded to earth. 

It's so sensitive that it will amplify a static discharge from my finger to the platter, one so weak I can't even feel it!  I'm not knocking the unit, I'd just like to understand if this is normal or if I should change something.  Maybe my earth ground is bad - how would I test that?

I'm really enjoying the sound of this combo.

poty

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Re: Picccolo - sensitive to electrical interference
« Reply #3 on: 21 Mar 2011, 08:20 am »
The TT is grounded to the Piccolo.
You should use as short and thick wire as possible.
The Piccolo and Bugle are grounded to the PS board.
Which way? Could you describe this part more?
The PS board and its case are grounded to earth.
...
Maybe my earth ground is bad - how would I test that?
This should be clarifying as well. How is the whole system is connected to earth and do you have the grounding wire in your outlet (I don't think it could be clearly discovered  - about outlet - without special measuring).

Aerobat

Re: Picccolo - sensitive to electrical interference
« Reply #4 on: 21 Mar 2011, 06:04 pm »
You should use as short and thick wire as possible.Which way? Could you describe this part more?This should be clarifying as well. How is the whole system is connected to earth and do you have the grounding wire in your outlet (I don't think it could be clearly discovered  - about outlet - without special measuring).

I'll shorten and beef up the ground wire from the TT.

From the PS to the Bugle:  +15v, -15v, and ground are connected to B1+, B2-, and ground, respectively. 

From the PS to the Piccolo:  +15v and ground are connected to the + and - battery terminals.

The PS ground is also connected to the case and to earth.

I googled a way to test the earth ground, and it said to put a voltmeter across the line and ground terminals, and it should read 120v.  I did that and it does.

I'm also getting what I assume to be a 60hz hum.  Does something seem amiss in the way I wired this?  Maybe I should ground the Piccolo and Bugle cases?

Mark

Edit:  This article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity) is interesting.  It looks as though I should ground the cases together, and perhaps use shielded wires between components.

poty

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Re: Picccolo - sensitive to electrical interference
« Reply #5 on: 21 Mar 2011, 07:45 pm »
I googled a way to test the earth ground, and it said to put a voltmeter across the line and ground terminals, and it should read 120v.  I did that and it does.
It tells something, but not all. Lets assume you have the "earth".
From the PS to the Bugle:  +15v, -15v, and ground are connected to B1+, B2-, and ground, respectively. 
From the PS to the Piccolo:  +15v and ground are connected to the + and - battery terminals.
The PS ground is also connected to the case and to earth.
I've looked through your build in an earlier post. You have 3 cases: Power Supply (PS), Bugle and Piccolo. As soon as both devices connects to the single PS there is:
PICCOLOground<->PSground<->BUGLEground
together with
PICCOLOoutput-interconnect<->BUGLEinput-interconnect
It seems also that the Bugle in addition has connection to the ground through your following preamp:
BUGLEoutput-interconnect<->PREAMPinput-interconnect
In the connection there is nothing unusual, but you should see now that the resistance from the devices to "earth" is rather high and noisy:
for example - PICCOLO
- long thin unshielded wire to the PS
- shield of interconnect to Bugle, then long thin unshielded wire to the PS.
What you can do about it? The following is just my IMHO and I'm not pretending to be the one and the only truth.
- In the PS: made the distinct "one point ground". The point should have ONLY 3 wire connected: the ground from the power cord, the ground from Bugle Power supply PCB and the case. As far as I can tell from your photos - you have made the one point ground on the ground point of the PCB - please check it!
- In the Bugle: connect the ground wire from the power supply to the PCB, ground your case to the same point on the PCB. Made the power supply connection from the PS to the Bugle shielded, short and use thick wire (for ground wire for sure). Connect the shield of the power supply connection only to the one point ground in the PS. Check the quality of interconnection shield from the Bugle to the preamp.
- In the Piccolo: all have been done already by JH. The only thing I can think of - use shielded and short power supply connection like in the Bugle.
This should eliminate most of the problems, but in your environment it is preferable to add some sort of power filtering device.

Aerobat

Re: Picccolo - sensitive to electrical interference
« Reply #6 on: 25 Mar 2011, 06:11 pm »
Thanks to Poty and Jim - my setup is all quiet now.  The changes I made were to:

  • Install a ground lug on the Bugle case, and ground the PCB to it
  • Run ground wire from turntable  ==> Piccolo ground lug ==> Bugle ground lug ==> PS ground lug ==> earth

  :D :thumb: