Flat Ribbons in RM30s

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 4044 times.

Russtafarian

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1117
  • Typical reaction to the music I play
Flat Ribbons in RM30s
« on: 2 Mar 2011, 06:54 pm »
I just installed the new Aurum Cantus flat ribbon tweeters in my RM30s.  The APR2.1 from Parts Express is a drop in replacement driver for the RM30’s corrugated ribbon tweeter.  Specs are identical except the flat ribbon is a few db less sensitive than the corrugated ribbon.  I did not dehorn them since I don’t listen with CDWGs.

I’ve only listened for a few hours, but I have to say I’m mightily impressed with what I’m hearing. 

Russ

Brian Cheney

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2080
    • http://www.vmpsaudio.com
Re: Flat Ribbons in RM30s
« Reply #1 on: 2 Mar 2011, 07:36 pm »
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.  The APR 2.1 is about the same price as the current FST and is worth investigating.  I'll let you know what I think.

Modern planar tweeters can sound very sweet--see the array of them in the RM50, which has exemplary trebles.

Brax

Re: Flat Ribbons in RM30s
« Reply #2 on: 3 Mar 2011, 11:50 am »
Russ,

Was there a reason you replaced the tweeters in your RM30s? Do you think the flat ribbon is an improvment over the standard VMPS tweeter? I would assume it would only be equal at best and because of it's spec's maybe a slight step backwards.

John Casler

Re: Flat Ribbons in RM30s
« Reply #3 on: 3 Mar 2011, 04:25 pm »
I just installed the new Aurum Cantus flat ribbon tweeters in my RM30s.  The APR2.1 from Parts Express is a drop in replacement driver for the RM30’s corrugated ribbon tweeter.  Specs are identical except the flat ribbon is a few db less sensitive than the corrugated ribbon.  I did not dehorn them since I don’t listen with CDWGs.

I’ve only listened for a few hours, but I have to say I’m mightily impressed with what I’m hearing. 

Russ

Hi Russ,

Did the previous owner "dehorn" your pair when they converted to the CDWG?

If so, and you do not dehorn the new pair, and you listen without the CDWG, they should sound stellar.

Russtafarian

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1117
  • Typical reaction to the music I play
Re: Flat Ribbons in RM30s
« Reply #4 on: 3 Mar 2011, 06:32 pm »
My speakers were built pretty early in the RM30 life cycle; I'm guessing late 2003 - early 2004.  I've had them since mid 2007.  At one point I dehorned the tweeters, didn't like the results and rehorned them.  When I did that I could see that one of the ribbons was slightly twisted in the magnetic gap.  Not wanting to risk making it worse, I left it as is.  So it's possible the nearly 8 year old tweeters were not performing up to spec. 

As I've adjusted and tweaked the speakers over the past few years, the one area I have not been able to get right was mid/tweeter transition.  When I turned the tweeters up enough to get the air, shimmer and extension that I wanted, the sound got too "spitty" in the upper midrange.

With the new flat ribbon tweeters, that issue is gone.  BTW, I still have plenty of tweeter gain on the potentiometer so the lower sensitivity of the flat ribbon driver isn't an issue for me.

In fact, the overall tonal balance shifted so much that, for the first time, the speaker now sounds better with the CDWGs on.  That surprised me as up to this point the CDWGs seamed to muffle and constrict the speaker.  The end result is the speaker's top end now matches the open transparency of the midrange. 

What I don't know is if the improved sound is because the flat ribbons sound better than the corrugated ribbons or because the original ribbons weren't working properly to begin with.  Probably a little of both.  I do know that the "hexangular honeycomb" ribbon is Aurum Cantus' latest advance in ribbon design and I've been quite impressed with the similarly constructed Raal ribbons in other speaker systems.

That said, I'm only two days into this new arrangement, so my impressions may change as the drivers settle in and I continue to tweak levels and speaker placement.

Russ

Googie

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
Re: Flat Ribbons in RM30s
« Reply #5 on: 5 Mar 2011, 08:03 pm »
I recently had to replace an FST tweeter that I damaged myself, again! The last time I made this mistake was around 4years ago. I think I read on the circle that the replacement FST was the Aurum Cantus G2Si and I ordered it through PE. This time I ordered it through Mr.B. When I compaired them side by side they looked the same. I broke it in for 2 days with a Pink Noise Track on repeat. The highs are back.

Russtafarian

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1117
  • Typical reaction to the music I play
Re: Flat Ribbons in RM30s
« Reply #6 on: 7 Mar 2011, 09:24 pm »
I spent some time listening and tweaking the rig over the weekend.  Installing the new tweeters in the RM30s gave me an excuse to retune the speaker to the room.  BTW, the CDWGs that I mentioned reinstalling in my last post didn’t last 24 hours.  While I’m impressed with the increased horizontal dispersion, I still hear a muffled constriction in the midrange that I just can’t live with.  So back to closet they go until next year’s attempt to make them work.

First, a disclaimer.  My system is both a listening oasis and a laboratory for mad scientist audio experiments.  Nothing I mention here has been approved or condoned by Brian Cheney or VMPS.  I do this stuff fully aware of the risks and rewards of modifying and manipulating the commercial products that find their way into my listening room. 
 
That said, a quick note on my RM30 setup.  I bi-amp (tri-amp if you count the stereo subs) the RM30s with 50 watt Quicksilver monoblocks on the mid-highs and 100 watt VTL monoblocks on the woofers.  The only crossover parts left in the speakers are the midpanel low pass filter coils and the tweeter level pots and high pass filters.  I run the mid panels wide open with only a line level 400 hz 1st order high pass filter on the inputs of the Quicksilver amps.  I find this to be much more transparent sounding than the internal TRT’d crossover.  I also removed the woofer’s low pass coil.

For the woofer and subwoofer filters, I use a miniDSP 2 way digital crossover/parametric EQ unit (www.miniDSP.com).  With miniDSP I can set and manipulate XO points/slopes, phase, level, and parametric filters on the fly from my laptop.  For less than $200, this is an amazing product.  It’s not transparent enough for me in the mid-highs (I have yet to hear a DSP that is), but with latency in the 2ms range, I can control the woofers & subs and blend them seamlessly with the mid-highs.

Using REW’s 48th octave RTA and pink noise I repositioned the speakers’ sidewall/backwall position for the smoothest response between 60 and 300 hz.  While I mostly voice speaker placement by ear with music, this is one area where room measurement really helps.  After a few tweaks to crossover frequencies and levels, the bass now snaps and energizes the room with minimal boundary induced overhang.  Surprisingly, I only used one parametric filter per channel (6db cut @160 hz).

I have the speakers towed in so they cross 1 foot in front on me as this seems to optimize the midpanels’ horizontal dispersion for a wide, coherent soundstage.  I also found that I can tailor the balance of midrange energy by tilting the speaker up in front to adjust the midpanel’s vertical dispersion.  So using blocks and tiptoes, the speakers are tipped up about 4” in front.  I’m still experimenting with tweeter level but I think I’m in the ballpark between 10 and 12 o’clock on the potentiometer.  That may change as the new tweeters settle in. 

All that to say with the new tweeters in and the newly tuned setup, the speakers really are sounding magnificent.



Russ

Edit: I fixed the miniDSP link.
« Last Edit: 8 Mar 2011, 02:39 am by Russtafarian »

Russtafarian

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1117
  • Typical reaction to the music I play
Re: Flat Ribbons in RM30s
« Reply #7 on: 21 Mar 2011, 06:13 pm »
An update on the new ribbon tweeters:  I just added (arrived Friday) a set of foam deflector pads that really help integrate the sound of the tweeter with the rest of the speaker.  The foam pads are made by Raal and here is what they look like on a Raal ribbon:



Here is Raal’s explanation of what they do:

“FOAM DEFLECTOR PADS: Wide angle polar response is of great importance for natural reproduction, therefore using the larger ribbon drivers bares a problem, since they are showing very intensive “beaming” of high frequencies, as they are line sources far bigger than the wavelengths of high frequencies in audible range. We found the solution for that problem in using the specially shaped foam pads in front of the ribbon. The dispersion pads are working as an acoustic lens, by slowing down the velocity of sound and thus shaping the sound wave front from cylindrical to spherical. The parasitic effect of partial sound absorption is inevitable, but acceptable. The pads are magnetic and they can slide on the front plate. By adjusting the distance between the pads, sliding them toward or apart each other, it is possible to shape the on-axis linearity vs. wide angle vertical polar response. In this way anyone can adjust the high frequency output by his-hers own liking. If the pads are completely removed, 15 kHz on-axis response is increased in level of about 7 dB.”

I got the pads from Madisound for $5 each.  They magnetically snap to the faceplate of the Aurum Cantus ribbons and I can adjust the “intensity” (for lack of a better word) of the highs by covering more or less of the ribbon area.  This tweak smoothed out the discontinuity I was hearing between the mid-panels and the tweeters and I’m now getting the best HF integration, extension and definition I’ve heard in my system.  Yet another step forward with the RM30!

Russ