CD Treatments....Are They Needed?

rodge827 · « **on:** 1 Mar 2011, 01:47 pm »

Hi All,

I'm new to this circle and this topic may have been discussed already.

I've made the desicision to shake off my close minded old school ways and join the 21st Century!

I'm looking to go discless for my system. To do so I must sell my cd transport, and associated items.

I have accumulated various cd treatment devices and wonder if any of them are useful or not in computer audio.

My cache consists of System Desk CD Lathe Edge Trimmer, Nespa Pro, and Acoustic Revive RD3 Demagnetizer.

Does treating a cd with any of these devices prior to ripping, help improve the sound quality in computer audio as in standard audio?

Or are they not needed?

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Thanks,

Chris

jtwrace · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Mar 2011, 01:50 pm »

Nah. Sell it all and move on! There is so much more to be gained in CA...

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Mar 2011, 02:58 pm »

Don't rob Peter to pay Paul . . . . . er,,, or something like that.

Seriously though, buy the computer hardware stuff as you can afford to, then wait to see if you don't use your transport and accessories any more. What's the big hurry? If you find your old stuff collecting dust, sell them down the road.

Why does it always have to be all or nothing?

rodge827 · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Mar 2011, 03:18 pm »

@ Jason-Thanks for the reply...Although I have heard that the treatment stuff isn't necessary I'm still holding out for other opinions, suggestions etc....

@ Quietearth-Thanks for your reply...This really isn't an all or nothing thing. From what I've been able to gather ripping discs in a full information format and using a computer as a transport is as good as a high quality cd transport. (?) I have a very goood transport now, 47 Labs Flatfish, Modded to the hilt with Black caps, an upgraded clock, and run off of a battery power supply.
The idea was to sell off the Flatfish, buy a Macbook Pro, and pocket some cash. Perhaps the question I should be asking is:

Can a disk ripped in a full information format, sound as good as a very high quality transport?

Chris

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Mar 2011, 03:29 pm »

Most people will tell you yes, as you have already gathered. But you will never know for yourself if you sell the transport and have nothing (but your memory) to compare the Macbook to.

I have a Macbook and a CD transport. As of right now, I prefer the sound quality of the CD transport. I am still working on ways to improve the way the Macbook delivers the digital out and I am hopeful that I can get it to sound as good as my transport some day. I'm glad that I have both digital sources to enjoy.

rodge827 · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Mar 2011, 03:46 pm »

Quietearth- After looking at your system pics (very niiiice

) I can see that we are not that far apart in system type. If you go to my systems page you will see what I mean.

What output on your Mac are you using to interface with your Dac?

Chris

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Mar 2011, 03:57 pm »

Hey rodge,

Right now I am using a USB output from the Mac into my Roland M1000 digital mixer. The Roland has a USB inut and it sends digital out via a SPDIF rca. I need to get a dedicated USB to SPDIF converter for my DAC so I can get the Roland back into the music room for recording.

I have tried the squeezebox thing wirelessly and loved the convenience but hated the sound. I also used the Macbook optical output into a Monarchy DIP into my DAC, and that was much better than the squeezebox but still very "processed" and digital sounding. The Roland via usb sounds very close to the CD transport.

I'm trying to figure out the best way to transfer USB to SPDIF and I was actually getting ready to post a question when I saw your post. Ooops, I got sidetracked again!

roscoeiii · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Mar 2011, 04:14 pm »

Chris,

It isn't something that you already have, but the Millenium CD mat has been reported to improve the quality of rips from CDs. But it has also caused some problems in some folks' CD drives (with shallow trays I believe). I have a Millenium mat and once I get around to getting a top-loading burner I will see what difference it makes to rips.

kip_ · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Mar 2011, 04:20 pm »

If an isolation mat is making a difference, then I'd suggest your cd drive is defective and the motor is vibrating too much. You could also use a different ripping software like Exact Audio Copy which reads every sector 8 times to make sure it's accurate

roscoeiii · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Mar 2011, 04:50 pm »

Haven't tried it myself, but check the Millenium CD Mat reviews to see what drives were being used. And I don't recall what rationale was suggested for the improvements.

gooberdude · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Mar 2011, 05:23 am »

I wouldn't sell any of your CD treatments until you've ripped your entire collection.

treating cd's before ripping is a very good thing, so is making sure the computer you are ripping to is sounding its best. A good power cord, vibration draining, etc all have an effect on how the 'ripped' cd will sound when replayed (in my experience).

rodge827 · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Mar 2011, 02:16 pm »

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the info. I'm still on the fence about what to do. My daughter has a Macbook and will be home at Easter. I'll do some ripping and comparing then, and hopefully be able to make a decision.

Chris

NekoAudio · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Mar 2011, 06:10 am »

If your primary worry is ensuring the 1's and 0's get copied to your hard drive correctly, then I would recommend using a ripping program that verifies the data against an online database.

AccurateRip does that is supported by a few different programs for both Windows and Mac: http://www.accuraterip.com/software.htm

rodge827 · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Mar 2011, 01:33 pm »

NekoAudio,

Thanks for the tip.
My concern is more about how well the data is delivered to the dac.
Every last bit of data may be in a hard drive, but will it all be delivered to the dac in full and uncorrupted?
I set my system up to be simplistic as well as flexable, Trans-Dac-Pre-Amp-Speaker. The thought being the fewer the pieces the better the sound.
As it stands now the transport that I have can deliver the signal extremely well. The cd tweeking devices all perform, in their own way, to better the process.
Origonaly I was wondering if any of these products help in the cd ripping process the way they do in the standard format.
Now I'm wondering if computer audio is worth it as a source for high quality music playback. As Quietearth stated and the guy who built my gear echoed, the sound was not as good as a very high quality tansport.
My gear builder (who's sound system is the best that I and many others have ever listened to) felt that the computer sound was flat and noninvolving, the music was there but it just wasn't as emotionaly involving as the Flatfish.

The learning continues,

Chris

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Mar 2011, 03:25 pm »

Chris,

I hope I didn't imply that computer audio isn't worth the trouble. I just didn't want to see you sell all of your nice things to get into it.

If your DAC has two spdif inputs like mine does, then I think that you might enjoy adding computer audio to your set up as a second source. With a flip of the switch on the back of the DAC, you can let your computer DJ the day away and you will enjoy hearing your music shuffled in different order like it's your own personal radio station. And, since your DAC is likely powered on and ready 24/7 anyway - why not use it that way?

When you want to sit down and listen to a disc in it's entirety, switch back to the simplicity of the Flatfish and enjoy it. All is well, still simple and undisturbed. Keep the computer somewhere off to the side of the main rig and run a longer digital cable to the DAC. That's how I do it over here anyway. The computer has DJ duty and it is starting to sound close enough to the transport that I'm not irritated by it anymore. I still play cds, vinyl, and even the occasional tape. They all sound like what they are. No need to try to make them all the same.

BTW, I'm still learning too. I think we all are.

rodge827 · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Mar 2011, 03:48 pm »

Quietearth,

Using a computer as a music source is something completely new to me. I'm somewhat behind the times with computers, ie: I have never downloaded or ripped a song before. I am going to go to an Apple store and get educated as such. So before I did all of that I wanted to do a little homework to see/hear if that was the way I wanted to go.

My motivation to go to computer was purely a financial one.
Sell off my expensive transport buy a Macbook, and pocket some cash.
As long as the sound/musical quality of my system wasn't compromised.
In order for me to go to a Macbook I would need to rase the funds, so the Flatfish was the logical piece to unload.

I have friends and family that own Macbooks, and soon I'll be making calls to them for a demo in my system.
As always somethings need a little research before implementing. I like the idea of having my complete collection in one place with the flexability it offers.

Thanks for all the advice it is greatly appreciated

,

Chris

roscoeiii · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Mar 2011, 04:08 pm »

Chris,

When you try out computer audio, I'd also recommend trying demos of some of the audio playback software available. Most software for Macs have demo options of around two weeks. They range in price from $20 to hundreds of dollars. In order of increasing price, these are the ones on my radar:

Fidelia ($20 +optional advanced options for another $4-50)
Decibel ($33)
Pure Music ($120)
Amarra (price varies by version, but can get up into the hundreds)

Listening with iTunes means you will not be hearing computer audio sound as good as it can.

I am currently using Fidelia and really like its sound. But I am a bit limited in what software I can use at present due to the limitations of the Mac I am using (amount of RAM and operating system)

PDR · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Mar 2011, 04:27 pm »

I find this thread very interesting, as I too am tring to jump into the 21st century.

My biggest problem is that if you rip to the puter and play back through some device with a DAC.....
How much do I have to spend to achieve the quality of (in my opinion) my very good tubed player?
I look at the inside of my Raysonc 128 and I wonder if I loose the make up of all the quality parts.
Do I have to use a tube buffer to regain the sound I like so much? Do I loose the detail and soundstage that the player has? I know its just 1s and zeros....but what happens after that?

Or am I thinking about this all wrong?

Thanks

Johnny2Bad · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Mar 2011, 05:15 pm »

Well, this may not be the exact answer you're looking for, but my 2c goes like this:

Start ripping your CDs to you computer. Spend a little time exploring the best way to do this (software-wise) and go. This takes time, so there's no point in waiting. You will like it much better if you can do it as time allows.

Store them in some lossless format ... there is no issues with quality and you will love the file size reduction.

Right from the start, the first thing you need to consider is a solid backup regimen. This might involve buying an external HD or two. In fact, it might even involve 3 HDs ... since you're going to be updating your backup from the playback library, you might consider a third backup that contains just the original files, in case you propagate a corrupt file from your playback drive to your backup, which probably will be updating your library on an ongoing basis (and could involve deleting files on the backup as your library changes, etc). This is really the first purchase you should be making.

If you have Firewire available, there is an advantage to using FW as your playback external since you probably eventually will be using the USB bus to get data to your DAC. Using external HDs offers flexibility since you almost certainly will update the server at some point. Externals also offer the ability to store at least one drive offsite.

You will have either one or two USB 2 controllers on your computer (depends on exactly what controller chip your computer has on the motherboard). If it's a desktop, you can add controllers via cards, but that probably won't be an option on laptops or compact desktops.

Since your computer may use one bus internally (keyboard, mouse, possibly camera, bluetooth, wireless are probably all USB internally), that leaves you with just one bus for your DAC, and it really should be alone on that bus (ie not shared with your external HD that stores the library you'll be playing back from) if quality is your goal. Some computers have additional USB 1x buses for internal devices, but find out for sure (and if you have a camera, it definitely will be on a USB 2 bus internally).

Firewire HDs make that easier to manage, and are considerably less expensive than FW to DAC options. FW also requires no work be done by your CPU, while USB generally does (FW controller chips actually are miniature computers, with their own CPU, firmware, memory, etc to handle data). You could, of course, use an internal HD to store the library. In any case be aware of the issues here and choose accordingly.

Use whatever digital to analog out available to you and hook it up to your playback system. If this means using the computer's D/A converter, so be it.

Start listening.

Now, this almost certainly won't sound as good as whatever system you're using now. Nevermind that. You can use it for casual playback only, if necessary, while you get used to how a music server-type system works and what advantages it offers over stuffing disks into a player.

Start exploring your options regarding getting data from the computer to a DAC and your system. Eventually you'll buy something. At the point where your computer server is equal to or better than your disk playback system, sell the disk system.

Carry on.

Note: referring specifically to Macbook Pro's, they have two internal USB 1.1 buses and two USB 2.0 buses. Most internal stuff is connected to the USB 1.1 bus but the built-in camera is on one USB 2.0 bus internally. That leaves one USB 2 bus connected to all the external connectors. You definitely will want Firewire external drives in that case, since you will need that USB 2 bus for your DAC connection.

NekoAudio · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Mar 2011, 01:19 am »

Quote from: rodge827 on 3 Mar 2011, 01:33 pm

My concern is more about how well the data is delivered to the dac.
Every last bit of data may be in a hard drive, but will it all be delivered to the dac in full and uncorrupted?
...
Now I'm wondering if computer audio is worth it as a source for high quality music playback. As Quietearth stated and the guy who built my gear echoed, the sound was not as good as a very high quality tansport.

Error detection and correction off a hard drive will be much better than the same off a redbook CD and CD drive. I wouldn't worry about the digital values being incorrect until they get to your output circuit.

However, as you noted, a high quality transport is more likely than a computer to have a good digital output circuit. One way to deal with that is to get a high quality sound card--usually an external one. But IMO a better way to deal with that is to use a DAC that is more tolerant of a poor signal. Many DACs made today include something to make poor signals irrelevant.

I recommend using an optical connection because you electrically decouple your noisy computer from your DAC. Some DACs are better than others with rejecting any noise that might be flowing down a coaxial or USB connection. And likewise some sound cards will be less noisy than others. A shorter cable may also help minimize signal degradation due to cable characteristics or the end point circuitry.