[WGH]

Have you measured what is really being changed, 6dB attenuation of WHAT?

Hey festuss even though you are late to the party you can still join us. Rather than re-posting all the information regarding attenuators I suggest you start at my first post in this thread and click on the links I included, they are there for newbies just like you.

One of the links includes measurements by art (Pat). If you are new here and don't know who Pat is or his credentials please click on his name and start reading other posts he has made. He understands electronics.

Wayne

[festuss]

 

[avahifi]

Will someone here please inform me of what rational engineering reason could exist to explain why reducing the level of a digital signal could possibly improve the sonic outcome.  This assumes of course that the original input signal level was not overloading the input circuits of the device at the end of that signal, which likely is impossible unless overall industry standards are being carelessly violated.

Remember, placebos abound and tend to always work just great.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[jkeny]

OK, Frank, firstly let me say that this is not a placebo & has been blind tested. There are also a large number of people who have reported on it. You may still think that there isn't enough evidence to believe what I say so the answer is to invest $20 in a minicircuits RF attenuator & try it yourself. This is why the thread has the title that it has. Now the more difficult part is to establish what is going on. Firstly, I would say that the sonic effects indicate that it is a reduction in jitter that is happening. So what is causing this reduction in jitter?There are two mechanisms that have been discussed & they may both be in operation
- a reduction in signal reflections
- a reduction in slew induced distortion of the SPDIF input circuitry

That's the summary. A deeper understanding with scope shots & explanations (along with lots of argument  ) will be found here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90454.0

[festuss]

Hey festuss - I did try 2 attenuators in series with one at each end of the spdif cable and the change in sound was even more dramatic than a single attenuator. The difference was easily picked out in an A-B test that even non-audiophiles could hear, with 2 attenuators the music has a blacker background, and a blacker foreground because no signal got through.

Wayne

Blacker background and foreground, that means there's nothing left but BLACK, how does that sound better, sounds to me you love word magic and mystical magic plugs.  These do not appear to have audiophile plating's, or labels, cannot possibly do anything.  Where is the names of snakes, rocks, minerals, or astro physics applied to audio? These are not labeled with correct type font.     What attenuators sound BAD?  Since these sound better than the previous ones you tried (auditioned, in high cost wurds).  What won't the audiophile not believe, or uninformed consumer.  I get paid pretty good on the knowledge I have in electronics, high speed digital signal processing, xrays, hV, all kinds of knowledge, but I also know, you have obviously better ears than mere humans.  Cus you hear improvements that mere mortals don't hear.

[WGH]

festuss - I'm glad you finally got the joke    (I think). I have gone back and read all your previous posts, you are not a very positive person are you? (At least in your AC posts) There are many circles here at AC, check them out and get to know the guys in the other circles besides just the Van Alstine Circle. You'll have fun.

Frank - Tone Depth and I did a comparison of my Insight+ and the latest Vision Hybrid DAC and he heard the same change in presentation that I heard when using an attenuator. An interesting point is that using the attenuator with the Vision Hybrid made the sound slightly worse in our opinion. Different chips, different results, that is why the thread's title only references the Insight+. Steve sometimes picks up on sounds I don't hear like when we did an amp comparison but when I demoed the ground enhancers he didn't hear a change so we are not always in agreement.

Our DAC thoughts are found here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91929.0
And yes, I'm saving for an upgrade.

Wayne

[jkeny]

Maybe he does maybe he doesn't Wayne 

BTW, I'm the guy behind the MK2 Hiface you linked to on the first post. I popularised the idea of the  RF attenuators for use with the Hiface - see my site - I picked up on the idea from a reference of JosephK's http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=43397#p43397. He was referring actually to a "Jocko" trick. Jocko on DiyhiFi.org is ART(Pat) on this forum.

ART(Pat) started his thread here which fills in many technical details & proved to be very interesting, particularly Jneutron's contributions.

There have been a number of threads where people have reported on their usage both here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72468.msg796176#msg796176 and on other forums http://www.audiofuture.net/showthread.php?28-RF-Attenuation and other posts scattered on other forums.

This is NOT a high-priced gizmo, designed to part gullible audiophools from their money - I had hoped that more threads like ART's would arise as a result of my postings about these devices & maybe we would discover something more about the workings of SPDIF, as a result. Unfortunately, despite lots of reports of the benefits of these devices, there is usually a blanket denial of the workings of these devices - this denial usually emanates from those who will not try them - go figure?

[avahifi]

Interesting.  So the RF attenuator improved the sound with our older Insight+ DAC but dis-improved the sound with the new Vision Hybrid DAC.   

Either the device works wonders or it does not.  Either the DAC can read the bits or it can't.  The attenuator either helps it read the bits or it hinders this.

Somehow, I suspect that $1000 platinum plated attenuators will work best of all, especially if matched with equally helpful best sounding power supply fuses.   

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

P.S.  Yes, I read the technical information.  Yes I can understand how changes in termination can affect the shape of the bits.  However, there is nothing to show if the DAC can or cannot still read the bits accurately.  Tests showing that best possible termination will actually reduce read errors and actually result in a more accurate data stream would be useful.  As it stands now, there is nothing to show that the error correction circuits are not doing there normal perfect job.

[jkeny]

Frank, so your a "bits is bits" person! I mistakenly thought you were interested in engineering as you stated. An inquiring mind would wonder why Wayne's statement might be correct.

Here's something to chew on - digital is just analogue with two voltage states! See ya!

[avahifi]

As noted above, the terminators as auditioned were claimed to improve the performance of one model of our DACs and degrade the perfomance of the other model.  Which result am I supposed to understand?

Frank

[festuss]

festuss - I'm glad you finally got the joke    (I think). I have gone back and read all your previous posts, you are not a very positive person are you? (At least in your AC posts) There are many circles here at AC, check them out and get to know the guys in the other circles besides just the Van Alstine Circle. You'll have fun.

Frank - Tone Depth and I did a comparison of my Insight+ and the latest Vision Hybrid DAC and he heard the same change in presentation that I heard when using an attenuator. An interesting point is that using the attenuator with the Vision Hybrid made the sound slightly worse in our opinion. Different chips, different results, that is why the thread's title only references the Insight+. Steve sometimes picks up on sounds I don't hear like when we did an amp comparison but when I demoed the ground enhancers he didn't hear a change so we are not always in agreement.

Our DAC thoughts are found here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91929.0
And yes, I'm saving for an upgrade.

Wayne

:scratch:Another brilliant claim, a GROUND ENHANCER!  You either have a ground or you don't, what is enhancing the ground?  Electrically it is a ground or it's not.  Not being bad contacts, corroded clamps, parts, poor solder joint, broken wire.  How do you enhance it?  Cleaning a poor contact is not enhancing anything, but restoring what used to be. etc.  You lower the resistance on say a service ground by having 2 ground rods in place 6ft apart when the soil conditions don't allow for the NEC required readings. An electronic component is either grounded properly, or it's not, no magic "enhancer" changes electrical property based on facts.  You have a ground loop or you don't, so you change or repair the wiring involved.  Enhanced, another audiophile word game.  Oye Vey.

[festuss]

Frank, so your a "bits is bits" person! I mistakenly thought you were interested in engineering as you stated. An inquiring mind would wonder why Wayne's statement might be correct.

Here's something to chew on - digital is just analogue with two voltage states! See ya!

:scratch:Actually bits is bits, a 1 is always a 1 a 0 is always a 0.  Thus the beauty of digital.  It's off or on.  No guessing, simple.  But never in audiophile village.  Always a magic fix for a non existent issue.  Always entertaining, always.   

[Listens2tubes]

I think Wayne is talking about the EVS Ground Enhancers http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/EVS_Ground_Enhancers.html which have an audiocircle thread or two.

[jkeny]

:scratch:Actually bits is bits, a 1 is always a 1 a 0 is always a 0.  Thus the beauty of digital.  It's off or on.  No guessing, simple.  But never in audiophile village.  Always a magic fix for a non existent issue.  Always entertaining, always.   

I'm sure you know how bits are stored & transmitted with your "knowledge I have in electronics, high speed digital signal processing, xrays, hV, all kinds of knowledge," for which you claim you "get paid pretty good" - you probably have a PhD in all this. So tell us Dr. Festuss do you know anything about transmission lines or high speed signalling? Even better, tell us how digital works! Then tell us why digital audio has another element besides the bits!

[festuss]

I think Wayne is talking about the EVS Ground Enhancers http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/EVS_Ground_Enhancers.html which have an audiocircle thread or two.

The ground "enhancers" are the latest line of nonsense and an obvious scam, only an idiot falls for such crap.. It's your money, burn it as you see fit.  Or join the circus, PT Barnum law of the stupid, clueless, keeps the scams in business. Attenuate, enhance, demagnetize plastic, it's a world of audiophile criminals.  It's like the drug business, if there where no customers the dealers would be out of business, but audiophile BS, is thriving thanks to the clueless and gullible. Anyone still have their green pens to improve the sound of a CD? Retards!

[jkeny]

Interesting.  So the RF attenuator improved the sound with our older Insight+ DAC but dis-improved the sound with the new Vision Hybrid DAC.   

Either the device works wonders or it does not.  Either the DAC can read the bits or it can't.  The attenuator either helps it read the bits or it hinders this.

Somehow, I suspect that $1000 platinum plated attenuators will work best of all, especially if matched with equally helpful best sounding power supply fuses.   

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

P.S.  Yes, I read the technical information.  Yes I can understand how changes in termination can affect the shape of the bits.  However, there is nothing to show if the DAC can or cannot still read the bits accurately.  Tests showing that best possible termination will actually reduce read errors and actually result in a more accurate data stream would be useful.  As it stands now, there is nothing to show that the error correction circuits are not doing there normal perfect job.

Well, you might have read but you didn't understand. What does "changing the shape of bits" mean? You are still clinging onto the bits errors as the only possible problem. Here's a hint - I gave it already - digital is analogue with only two voltage levels. Ask yourself how digital works - how a bit is sensed?

Now the same question as I asked Dr. festuss - what is the other element besides bits that you need for digital audio?

[WGH]

As noted above, the terminators as auditioned were claimed to improve the performance of one model of our DACs and degrade the perfomance of the other model.  Which result am I supposed to understand?

Frank

Yea I know Frank, it don't make no good sense at all.  The current chip must be better at jitter rejection and doesn't like an out of spec spdif signal. I'm just a simple woodworker and don't claim to know how all this stuff works.

Yearly I spend more money on Bombay Sapphire martinis than tweaks but once in a while I like to play when a topics like ground enhancers or attenuators reach critical mass.

Wayne

[jkeny]

Good on ya Wayne - you don't have to explain your results, just honestly report them. I would consider that very worthwhile.

[Brett Buck]

Frank, so your a "bits is bits" person! I mistakenly thought you were interested in engineering as you stated.

    Why do you think that this is not a valid engineering point? The DAC takes bits and converts them. If it gets the *right* bits then altering the shape of the bits can make no difference. It's either the right bits or the wrong bits, period, assuming the rest of the DAC is designed properly. It's not a matter of opinion, it's inescapable fact.

     Brett

[sirbrine]

I actually kind of enjoyed reading through this thread.  Although there are obviously some strong opinions, people have mostly been respectful.  Maybe a few pokes back and forth but certainly more in the spirit of good fun than some I have read.