M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface

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coops

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #120 on: 15 May 2010, 05:31 pm »
Marco is a very nice guy and a real live wire! I think there was apple strudel in that box!

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #121 on: 19 Jun 2010, 09:32 pm »
Here's some useful information for all owners of the Hiface (stock or modified) & maybe the upcoming Evo?

Use an RF attenuator on the SPDIF cable to reduce jitter!! These are only $12 & best bang for the buck you can get, I believe.

RF Attenuators have been know about & used for many years. A recent discussion about their use on the SPDIF output of the hiface is to be found here: http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=43397#p43397

While there look in on this thread which also discusses them ( I'm the schmuck & troll referred to) http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2062&p=43639&e=43639
 
These particular attenuators are in-line adaptors that can be connected at the start or end (or both?) of your digital cable. The idea behind using these attenuators on a digital cable is to reduce in strength the inevitable signal reflections that travel up & down the cable. These reflections are one of the many sources of added jitter in every digital system. Reducing the strength of these reflections should result in a reduction in the jitter generated by the transport to DAC connection. There are many situations where this should result in better sound, for instance, it may be a good way of reducing the sonic penalty usually incurred in using a BNC to RCA adaptor. So this could mean that by using these attenuators an RCA input on your DAC should now be about the same sonically as a BNC input.

These are premises based on how the attenuators work - real world results may be different although I have tested a BNC to RCA adaptor with & without one of these attenuators & the sound was noticeably smoother & without edge with the attenuator in-line.
 
Here is the cheapest place I have found on the internet for these attenuators at $12 each - there are other places that will charge you >$30 for eactly the same thing - I've even seen them for >€100 in RS which I thought must be a mistake! I believe this is cheap enough to allow experimenting with the range of values available. http://www.minicircuits.com/products/attenuators_coax_fixed.html

Scroll down to the bottom of the page - it's the BNC 75ohm variety that you want. They come in 3, 6, 10, 15, 20dB versions - the 3 & 20dB ones could probably be ruled out as too low & maybe too high an attenuation. What we want to aim for is enough attenuation to suppress signal reflections BUT not too much to reduce the signal voltage to too low. You will know if you have done this as the DAC will not lock to the SPDIF signal.

Why buy expensive digital cables when using the high output Hiface & similar transports - these simple & cheap devices can be used to achieve a better solution. It's better solution because of the fact that a good digital cable if well made (expensive!) will have controlled impedance from end to end & will be a close match to the desired 75ohm. Outside of the cable at the DAC end or the transport end the cable cannot ameliorate any impedance anomalies that are encountered by the digital signal so these will give rise to reflections travelling down the cable. The attenuators, knock down these reflections to insignificant levels making them no longer important !
« Last Edit: 10 Jul 2010, 06:24 pm by jkeny »

Alexdad54

Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #122 on: 21 Jun 2010, 01:04 am »
Does this mean that you would need an spdif cable with a bnc connector on one end to try this and then use a BNC to RCA converter after the attenuator to connect to the DAC? I have the RCA Hi-Face.

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #123 on: 21 Jun 2010, 08:54 am »
Does this mean that you would need an spdif cable with a bnc connector on one end to try this and then use a BNC to RCA converter after the attenuator to connect to the DAC? I have the RCA Hi-Face.

These only come in BNC style AFAIK & so it would be as you say.

I tried one in a RCA to RCA cable which had a BNC/RCA adapter on it as I was running it from a BNC Hiface. It made a significant difference - cleaned up the slightly edgy, sibilant sound I heard without the attenuator. I didn't test straight RCA Hiface without adaptor in this set-up

HAL

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #124 on: 21 Jun 2010, 11:19 pm »
I have a 6dB and 10dB 75 ohm attenuator coming from Mini-Circuits to try with the HiFace.  Will see if I can get the Wolfson DAC with the Wolfson S/PDIF receiver to lock up.

The HiFace here is the RCA output.  Will put the attenuator at the DAC end with an RCA to BNC adaptor to give it a try.
« Last Edit: 22 Jun 2010, 01:47 am by HAL »

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #125 on: 21 Jun 2010, 11:24 pm »
Do post your impressions - this is experimental & good to know it's operational parameters.

HAL

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #126 on: 23 Jun 2010, 02:37 am »
With the DAC board here was able to use the 10dB RF attenuator and get good lock on the Wolfson S/PDIF receiver.  Will try adding the 6dB attenuator tomorrow and see if I still get lock.

The 10dB attenuator sounded good in the setup.

Will be doing some sound comparisons once I figure out what attenuation to use as the final.

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #127 on: 23 Jun 2010, 09:05 am »
Good Hal, tell us what differences you hear between with attenuator & without, when you have done some listening!

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #128 on: 27 Jun 2010, 07:57 am »
Hal, any impressions?

HAL

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #129 on: 27 Jun 2010, 01:00 pm »
So far it is doing well with the DAC.  Sounds a bit cleaner overall with the 10dB attn.

The test will be when I remove it to see what happens.  Hope to do that tonight.


jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #130 on: 29 Jun 2010, 07:08 pm »
Another has reported positive results with a 10dB attenuator here http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/446375/usb-24-192khz-m2tech-hiface/1395#post_6746776
« Last Edit: 29 Jun 2010, 08:33 pm by jkeny »

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #131 on: 1 Jul 2010, 06:30 am »
I got a private mail that someone had a negative result with attenuators i.e the sound was more grainy! On investigation it seemed to be that they bought these attenuators from their local electrical store - I don't know if they were a known brand even.

So it's important that the attenuators themselves are of a good manufacturing quality & tight tolerance. Otherwise you could be making matters worse, not better. Look for a datasheet or stick with the recommended ones - minicircuits

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #132 on: 1 Jul 2010, 07:34 am »
I have uploaded a track that I used to show the attenuator effects. It's a Nat King Cole track "But Beautiful". On it I hear Nat's voice sounding spitty on the "S"'s. With the attenuator, this goes without loss of detail. Other things noted with the attenuator - the massed violins sounded smoother & the 3D sound stage seemed to be more solid. Here's the download http://www.4shared.com/dir/_nTfhC5b/Music.html

Can anybody who downloads this report back, firstly if they hear this spittiness & secondly if they use an attenuator, does it remove it?
« Last Edit: 1 Jul 2010, 02:51 pm by jkeny »

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #133 on: 2 Jul 2010, 08:42 pm »
I got a private mail that someone had a negative result with attenuators i.e the sound was more grainy! On investigation it seemed to be that they bought these attenuators from their local electrical store - I don't know if they were a known brand even.

So it's important that the attenuators themselves are of a good manufacturing quality & tight tolerance. Otherwise you could be making matters worse, not better. Look for a datasheet or stick with the recommended ones - minicircuits

It turned out they had bought a $9.95 Jaycar BNC attenuator - no data sheet available  :nono:

HAL

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #134 on: 2 Jul 2010, 09:07 pm »
Ok here is the experiment.

I just received today three Blue Jeans 75 ohm cables with Canare true 75 ohm BNC's with Belden 1694A 4.5GHz RF cable and a BNC version HiFace.  I also have a RCA version HiFace I use with Radio Shack RCA to RCA 75 ohm cable.  Have the 10dB Mini-Circuits 75 ohm attenuator and the Nat King Cole cut.

Will try the stock RCA HiFace with the RS cable and no attenuator and see what I hear.  Then add the 10dB attenuator and retry.  The second comparison will be the winner against the BNC HiFace with the Blue Jeans cable. 

I still have to use a BNC female to RCA male converter to tie to the DAC when I use the BNC attenuator.

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #135 on: 2 Jul 2010, 09:11 pm »
Great, Hal, looking forward to results

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #136 on: 3 Jul 2010, 12:14 pm »
BTW, there are 19 downloads of this Nat track but nobody here reporting on the sound!
It wasn't meant as a free download for Nat King Cole fans  :nono:
Maybe some people would care to say what they are hearing on this track?

HAL

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #137 on: 3 Jul 2010, 12:21 pm »
Listened last night with the BNC HiFace, Blue Jeans 75 ohm cable and Mini-Circuits 10dB attenuator.  No problems for the Wolfson S/PDIF receiver to lock on the signal according to the sync indicator.

The "S" sound on Nat's voice seems better integrated with the BNC setup and 10dB attenuator.  It is not a huge difference, but something is changing for what seems the better.  It is more pleasant to listen to with the attenuator. 

Will be trying the RCA version out this evening to see if it does the same or different.

HAL

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #138 on: 3 Jul 2010, 12:25 pm »
One way to see if the attenuator is helping would be to look at the data eye pattern and see how much difference is seen.  This might give a clue as to what is going on with the S/PDIF waveform.  Also looking at the waveform would show the difference with the attenuator. 

Just a thought.

jkeny

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Re: M2Tech HiFace 24/192 USB->S/PDIF penstyle interface
« Reply #139 on: 3 Jul 2010, 04:13 pm »
Listened last night with the BNC HiFace, Blue Jeans 75 ohm cable and Mini-Circuits 10dB attenuator.  No problems for the Wolfson S/PDIF receiver to lock on the signal according to the sync indicator.

The "S" sound on Nat's voice seems better integrated with the BNC setup and 10dB attenuator.  It is not a huge difference, but something is changing for what seems the better.  It is more pleasant to listen to with the attenuator. 

Will be trying the RCA version out this evening to see if it does the same or different.

No, it's not a huge difference but I believe it's the equivalent of a very good SPDIF cable upgrade for maybe a tenth or twentieth of the price (maybe more, I don't look at cable prices)!

Thanks for your experiments & reports.