[Ericus Rex]

What does this OB effect do to non-large-scale/non-symphonic recordings?

[Tyson]

Gives them a sense of scale and ambiance that they normally would not have otherwise.  For intimate female vocals, maybe not a great thing, but for every other type of music I think it's a net-gain.

[canzld]

I agree with Tyson in that I don't think there's anything specifically detrimental to reproduction of the 'smaller' musical forms. Chamber music works equally well as large symphonic for me and I can't say I have any issues with voice production either. Better ambiance due to more natural sounding decay, maybe? Obviously a lot of it comes down to personal preference. At my (low) price point, it's the closest I've come to my expectations of a live performance (but i also like vinyl, so everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt  ).

[JohnR]

I don't find an issue with small-scale recordings either... it all sounds fairly natural to me, within known limitations of it being recordings that we're listening to and some technical issues (system is still a prototype). However I've not had a comparable box speaker in here to offer a box-vs-OB comparison.

Thanks canzid for the reminder on Toole's book - I haven't spent much time in Part 1 and need to do so.

[jimdgoulding]

Have you ever made a recording of some music being played on your stereo where the mics were far enough away from the speakers to capture the sound of the room? And then played that recording back on a different stereo system in a different room? It's kind of weird. You can hear the sound of the first system plus the sound of the original room, but mostly you just hear a mess because now it's on a second system playing into another room.

Now, what if you had to make a similar recording on a larger scale to distribute to many different people with different sounding systems and different sounding rooms? I'll bet you would try to minimize the original room characteristics and lose some of the live music perspective so you could get a better translation of the musical content to the next listener. I think it's a fair trade off.

Recorded music. It is what it is.

I own and take great pleasure from recordings where there doesn't seem to be a compromise.  Bet you do, too.  I would prefer that there not be trade offs, but I think I understand the reasons why they exist.  I have some (who doesn't?), but don't listen to them as often.

Hello, canzid.

[Quiet Earth]

You're right Jim, I like those special recordings too. I just don't criticize the non-special ones as much as I used to. Instead, I try to find better ways to enjoy them. like reminding myself that I am not listening to a live event teleported into my room. Or I couldn't get a good seat so I am sitting way too close (or too far.)

Another way to appreciate your average recording is to start recording music events yourself. That'll open your eyes. 

 Or join a band. I was recruited by my guitar-hero neighbor to be his garageband bass player and sound roadie. Achieving good live sound is a lot harder than it looks. We still haven't figured it out. 

[canzld]

I don't find an issue with small-scale recordings either... it all sounds fairly natural to me, within known limitations of it being recordings that we're listening to and some technical issues (system is still a prototype). However I've not had a comparable box speaker in here to offer a box-vs-OB comparison.

Thanks canzid for the reminder on Toole's book - I haven't spent much time in Part 1 and need to do so.

don't you know JohnR - all DIY OB are doomed to be prototypes forever  - well at least the majority of the ones I've seen.
btw -completely off topic, but  nice articles on the minidsp - I've been using one for a while with my 2 way OB.

[hesson11]

Stand back, boys. I'm goin' in! I'm about to sacrifice myself for the few (if any) who will perhaps take this to heart. Gird your loins for a...signal-processing post!

Years ago, I was a die-hard audio purist. But after spending a good portion of my life attending symphonic concerts, I was always let down by the sound from my home system (as we all are). Then about 15 years or so ago, I started reading reviews of signal-processing systems from folks like Lexicon and Yamaha. If you've been around for a while, you may remember them. They simulated the sound of actual concert halls through digital processing and an array of "surround" speakers.

The best of the lot was held by many to be the JVC XP-A1010. I finally found one (many years ago) and set it up. The result is the closest approximation to concert-hall sound that I have ever heard. When set up and configured properly, I hear virtually nothing artificial about it. Not only do you hear the "sound" of the hall, even the instrumental timbres (a hot issue with me) seem truer. Being a bit of a digiphobe, I've managed to set up the system so my main speakers remain all analog, while the four effects speakers (two front, two rear) go through the JVC's digital processing.

The effects are subtle--but spectacular. My Magnepan MG 2.6/R speakers came nowhere near equaling the effects of the JVC unit/system. Despite my long-held antipathy toward anything "processed" or "synthesized," I found the JVC-based system to offer the most natural orchestral sound I'd ever heard at home. I still have it and use it all the time. In fact, fear of its demise prompted me to buy a second unit on eBay a few years ago. It sits in my closet awaiting the call of duty, if needed.

The unit can be adjusted in seemingly limitless ways for reverb strength, reverb time, high-frequency rolloff, even the soundfield of a particular recording and your particular listening room. One reviewer, if I remember correctly, calculated the various combinations and permutations of parameters in the billions! Fortunately the factory-set default values work beautifully, and it's easy to adjust one or two parameters, depending the the particular recording.

I don't find the system to be as natural sounding on smaller ensembles (string quartets, trios, solo violins, etc.), so I primarily use it on orchestral recordings.

There you have it. My flame suite is zipped up to my chin, and I'm ready for anything that comes. But tonight, I'm confident that my room will be closer to a concert hall than just about anyone else's! Thanks for reading.
-Bob

[Ericus Rex]

 

[hesson11]

LOL   

I'm flameproof, Ericus! I'm in row M of Symphony Hall, and I'm loving it! Too bad the rest of you aren't with me.
-Bob

[Tyson]

How many speakers does it need to work?

[hesson11]

How many speakers does it need to work?

Ideally, you need 2 main L/R speakers, 2 front effects speakers and 2 rear effects speakers. I used it for a few years with just the main L/Rs and the rear effects speakers. But the system leaped way ahead when I added the front effects speakers. You also need amplifiers for the effects speakers; power is not supplied by the JVC unit.
-Bob

[Russell Dawkins]

That's because at a live performance you sit pretty far away from the violinist, but in a recording the mic is placed very close to the soloist.  This changes the wood/steel balance considerably.

It would be a pretty poor recordist who does not compensate for this. Having said that, it probably does explain to a large extent why orchestral recordings sound so bright compared to the real thing.

A recording engineer (not involved in orchestral recording) who attended a concert was heard to ask, famously, "where's the tweeter?"

The other thing the recordist has to compensate for is that most mics have a built in high frequency boost, to enable the output from the mic to "cut through" a mix (and, originally, to cut through tape hiss). This is in the order of 4 dB centered around 7-10 kHz, with a low Q - typically .5.

So duplicating reality, if that is wanted instead of duplicating other recordings' sounds, (and don't discount this impetus) involves a judicious HF reduction, the addition of reverb, which may be synthetic or from "room mics", and the use of dynamic control in the form of compression and limiting.

Then there is the decision around which of the many paths to follow - do you take the less traveled road of realistic tonal balance and unconstrained dynamics or the pop road of hyped highs and comressed dynamics? The market considerations generally steer the course.

[JohnR]

don't you know JohnR - all DIY OB are doomed to be prototypes forever  - well at least the majority of the ones I've seen.

I'm afraid of that We will see...! Fortunately even in its current state it seems to be "domestically acceptable."

btw -completely off topic, but  nice articles on the minidsp - I've been using one for a while with my 2 way OB.

Thank you - I'm quite enjoying this journey, it's one I've wanted to do for a while. The miniDSP (along with other things) somehow tipped me over the edge and on the way.  I'd be interested to read more about your setup.

Back somewhat on the original topic, I went to a performance of Mozart's Requiem last night, although an amateur choir and orchestra, it was very well done. (Professional conductor and I believe soloists.) While I have only two recordings of the Requiem, this sounded for all the world to me like the Karajan one. As soon as the orchestra started playing though I knew that I would have a challenge when I listened again at home. I have not done so yet... this evening or the next.

[canzld]

Ideally, you need 2 main L/R speakers, 2 front effects speakers and 2 rear effects speakers. I used it for a few years with just the main L/Rs and the rear effects speakers. But the system leaped way ahead when I added the front effects speakers. You also need amplifiers for the effects speakers; power is not supplied by the JVC unit.
-Bob

Kudos for finding exactly what works best for you, Bob. Is this doable in a regular living room and does the effect work outside the prime listener's chair? Do you damp the walls to hide our room acoustic,or are the effects speakers so many dB over room reflection that they just dominate?

I'm afraid of that We will see...! Fortunately even in its current state it seems to be "domestically acceptable."

Thank you - I'm quite enjoying this journey, it's one I've wanted to do for a while. The miniDSP (along with other things) somehow tipped me over the edge and on the way.  I'd be interested to read more about your setup.

Mine is a very simple 2 way -all ideas copied from others - unbaffled, suspended Visaton B200 over Eminence alpha 15 in an H frame, 4W tubes on top, SS below, with xover and eq handled by the minidsp. ..and some time later still in particle board and scrap cuts  It was a voyage of discovery for me having never done more than set up store bought speakers and amps and I'm very happy with where it has got to.

[hesson11]

Kudos for finding exactly what works best for you, Bob. Is this doable in a regular living room and does the effect work outside the prime listener's chair? Do you damp the walls to hide our room acoustic,or are the effects speakers so many dB over room reflection that they just dominate?

You just need a few feet behind and beside the main L/R speakers and a bit of space behind the listening position. I certainly don't have an abundance of space in my 12' x 21' room, but they work fine. One of the great things about the JVC is that there is an adjustment for your listening room's reflectivity/liveness. So I don't take any unusual measures to treat my room acoustically. Works beautifully.
-Bob

[Ericus Rex]

 

[jimdgoulding]

I'm afraid of that We will see...! Fortunately even in its current state it seems to be "domestically acceptable."

Thank you - I'm quite enjoying this journey, it's one I've wanted to do for a while. The miniDSP (along with other things) somehow tipped me over the edge and on the way.  I'd be interested to read more about your setup.

Back somewhat on the original topic, I went to a performance of Mozart's Requiem last night, although an amateur choir and orchestra, it was very well done. (Professional conductor and I believe soloists.) While I have only two recordings of the Requiem, this sounded for all the world to me like the Karajan one. As soon as the orchestra started playing though I knew that I would have a challenge when I listened again at home. I have not done so yet... this evening or the next.

Interested to know your impressions.  Your room isn't as large as the hall you attended.  Therein is a large challenge.  The attractive thing about OB speaks to me is the possibility they may portray the stage more spaciously and taller, wider than direct radiators.  But, at what expense, if any?  Use your volume control to help replicate where you were sitting and compare for us with the live event, please.  Thanks

[hesson11]

You're a man of few words, Ericus, and I have a feeling we're all better off for it.
 
-Bob