Burning music onto DVD with DVD+Audio

Rob Babcock · « **on:** 21 Mar 2004, 09:58 pm »

Some time back we had a discussion here on how to get wave files onto a DVD. Now a company has software to not only do that, but record it at any bit rate from 16-24 bit and upsample it to 96 or 192 kilohertz! They offer a free trail (I'll probably download it tonite or tomorrow). They also claim their software upsampling sounds better than the CD does with an upsampling player.

Check it out here: http://www.eximius.nl/

randytsuch · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 03:03 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

They also claim their software upsampling sounds better than the CD does with an upsampling player.

Check it out here: http://www.eximius.nl/

People claim lots of things

But, thanks for the link. And since they don't have to upsample real time, it does have the potential to sound better than an upsampling player, depends on their implementation.
Be curious to see what you think. I may give it a shot when I get some time to play with it.

Randy

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 03:54 am »

Another advantage is that by upsampling when you burn it instead of with hardware upon playback, you can use it with any player. Pretty much any modern DVD player will play a DVD-R (or +R, maybe not both but at least one) and many players will play back sampling rates of 192 khz.

Even without improved sound, putting 2 hrs of CD quality music onto a DVD is cool. It took a long time to find the right software & figure out how to do it, and then someone comes along with a product designed specifically to do it!

I'm inclined to think it may improve the sound; my "DVD-M" discs, as I call them, seem like the might possibly sound better than the original CDs. I'd hate to have to prove it, but that has been my impression so far.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 05:05 am »

Okay, got one sample disc done. It seems to have some quirks operationally, and it seems to have a pop between songs. Well, there is on my Denon, but not on my cheapo Pioneer. Granted, it's the first thing I've tried and I don't really know how the hell it's supposed to work. It actually works pretty well on the Pioneer- the site does warn you there can be compatibility problems with some players & hardware.

Sonically, though- WOW! The upsampling does seem to work as advertised. Playing it back thru my HT rig, the receiver does light up indicating "24/96", and the sound is fantastic.

It certainly merits more playing with.

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 06:26 am »

I gave it a whirl and I thought it sounded awful. Granted, I was totally confused through the whole procedure, but I did get it to work. Wondering if maybe I didn't do it right?

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 07:51 am »

There's a lot that can get fucked up, and it isn't really intuitive at all. From what I've read, certain things sound really great and some things don't come out at all. I guess personal taste comes into it too- some people love upsampling and some really hate it, some guys like oversampling DACS and some guys really prefer non-oversampling like the Nixon.

There were a couple of tracks I burned that really didn't sound all that great and some that sound spectacular.

Of course, I just installed Satfrat's Z-Sleeves on my cables!

BTW, what were you playing it back thru? I listened to the DVD's thru my Denon DVD-2200 (which sounds better than any of my CD players).

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 10:37 am »

Okay, the "tick" between songs seems to be related to metadata that Nero 6 saves- I've been told you can get in and change the settings so that it won't save the metadata. Does anyone know how to do this?

At any rate, so far no ticks with anything ripped from EAC. So I guess if you want to try this software you'd be better of using EAC as it seems to work the best for this app.

eico1 · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 01:59 pm »

It seems that in addition to upsampling this program also does some form of "resolution enhancement". That sounds tricky, might try without it.

steve

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 03:31 pm »

Quote

BTW, what were you playing it back thru? I listened to the DVD's thru my Denon DVD-2200 (which sounds better than any of my CD players).

I have a Toshiba 3950 and a panny xp30, both dvd players. I had only tried it on the Toshiba, this morning I tried it on the xp30 and it sounded a lot better. I did a direct comparison between Diamonds on the soles of her shoes, the dvd audio running on the xp30 and CDDA on the Toshiba, flipping back and forth. I still think I like the CDDA better, they are close but it is really an unfair a/b because the xp30 only has optical out, while the 3950 only has coax. I think with a little tweaking this might sound pretty good. I would also like to try without the "resolution enhancement" if i can figure out how to.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 07:45 pm »

From what I see on their support forum, I sorta don't think you can turn off the "enhancement." The effectiveness of the upsampling/interpolation seems to vary by track and seems to depend somewhat on the players.

Also, I've made a few now, and it looks like the only way to get decent performance is by extracting with EAC. If NERO touches the track in any way, the whole thing collapses. Maybe NERO has a setting to not store metadata- if so then it will probably work, too.

If not, I'll have to mess with trying to learn to use Foobar or Alcohol 120%- for the software to be useful to me I have to be able to make edits & fades and I level match the songs.

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 07:53 pm »

I never use anything but EAC to rip. What are you using to burn, Nero?

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 08:05 pm »

Yeah. For CDs I do everything with Nero 6. For DVD movie backups I sometimes use Nero Burning Rom. So far to make the DVD+Audio discs I've extracted the WAV file w/EAC & used Nero Burning Rom to actually burn the DVD. That works well, but I have to figure out a way to be able to perform edits without getting a 'tick' between tracks. I just have to be able to fade in or out, normalize, etc.

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 Mar 2004, 07:17 pm »

Also, what brand of media are you using? I have one dvd-rw(not sure of the brand, it came with my burner) and a bunch of fuji dvd-r. Do they make memorex black dvds yet?!

Tyson stopped by last night and liked the DVD+audio the best. I wonder what I should look for if I were to get a new dvd player for playing these discs?

randytsuch · « **Reply #13 on:** 25 Mar 2004, 08:41 pm »

Quote from: sunshinedawg

Also, what brand of media are you using? I have one dvd-rw(not sure of the brand, it came with my burner) and a bunch of fuji dvd-r. Do they make memorex black dvds yet?! Tyson stopped by last night and liked the DVD+audio the best. I wonder what I should look for if I were to get a new dvd player for playing these discs?

There are lots of posts in the media section of dvdrhelp discussing the best dvd-r media.

Basically, comes down to look for made in japan.

The fujis, if made in japan, are TY's, which, like their CD's, are very good. Maxells are also supposed to be very good, if made in Japan.

This page has some info on media
www.nomorecoasters.com

Just be aware it is not who sells the media, but who makes the media that counts. Some companies use multiple sources for media, IE fuji has a taiwan source, but they say made in taiwan, so you can avoid them.

Randy

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 Mar 2004, 09:24 pm »

My fujis are taiyo-yudens made in Japan. I was just wondering if there was a brand that somebody found that works the best for making DVD audio disks

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Mar 2004, 02:09 am »

I use ProDisc; they're cert'd by Pioneer and seem to be great discs. I've had more luck figuring out the whole process. If I use Nero Wave Editor to edit a song & burn it to a disc, I can then rip that disc w/EAC & not get any pops between songs. I realize this is an extra step & uses a disc, but I'm just experimenting. And I just realized EAC will normalize nicely!

I'm using the trial version now, but I'm 95% sure I'll be buying the full version. It's just a matter of making sure it's going to do what I want first.

My impression is that as long as you use a DVD-R that your burner & player like, and extract w/EAC, the sound is better than the original CD. My Denon player & my Pioneer both prefer -Rs over +Rs, btw.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Mar 2004, 02:10 am »

I bet that APL's super-modded 563 would rock out with these upsampled beauties!

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Mar 2004, 05:01 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

I bet that APL's super-modded 563 would rock out with these upsampled beauties!

My panny xp-30 blows my tosh 3950 away when it comes to these dvd+audio discs. My burner only does -R, guess I'm in luck, sounds like the +R aren't as good. I wonder if this will work on the soon to be released dual layered dvd-r's?

I thought i had settled in on media with memorex blacks using a yamaha f1-ux burner with Audio master quality. Now this dvd+audio comes along. This fall or winter it will be HD dvd. When will it stop!

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Mar 2004, 05:21 am »

I hear ya! I've got a TON of full face printable CD-Rs from Mitsui, Taiyo Yuden & Prodisc... But as cool as the DVD+Audio thing is, I certainly won't quit burning CDs. They're more universal (ie not everyone can play a DVD+/-R, plus you can use it in the car, boombox etc). Also the CD is easier & faster to burn. Lastly, the media is a whole lot cheaper.

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Mar 2004, 05:50 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

I hear ya! I've got a TON of full face printable CD-Rs from Mitsui, Taiyo Yuden & Prodisc... But as cool as the DVD+Audio thing is, I certainly won't quit burning CDs. They're more universal (ie not everyone can play a DVD+/-R, plus you can use it in the car, boombox etc). Also the CD is easier & faster to burn. Lastly, the media is a whole lot cheaper.

I agree with everyone of your points. However, I hardly ever listen to cds anywhere but on my 2 channel, so I would not have that problem. I only listen to the radio in the car. Denver has one of the few remaining all jazz stations in the country and no commercials to boot!

I've got to think most people have a dvd player these days. With all these diff formats(dual layer dvd and hd dvd) coming out, I bet that the dvd-r prices will drop just like the cd-r did when dvd-r was new.

Oh yeah, you can also fit two full cds with a little room to spare on one dvd-r I think.