Opinions on most "accurate" speakers

Sa-dono · « **Reply #20 on:** 22 Mar 2004, 05:05 am »

A lot of good recommendations so far. I guess I'll take a different route. I would pick up a Perpertual Technologies P-1A used, and get SOCS for whatever speakers that are bought. If you want accuracy, why not get the most phase accurate speakers possible, and flatten the response of already good speakers?

This gives you another $1-2K to work with for speakers. This should provide you with the most accurate base to tweak from, as long as you are not looking to do extensive work to test out hi-res formats on particular players. If you are looking to buy immediately, then you may want to go with the Onix Rocket 750's or Onix Ref 1's, as these will likely be the first speakers to have SOCS offered for them. The 750's will provide you slightly more bass, while the Ref 1's will offer you more high frequency extension and transparency.

Best of luck with whatever choice you make Bill!

StevenACNJ · « **Reply #21 on:** 22 Mar 2004, 11:22 am »

Quote from: Response Audio

Marbles, It is interesting that you mention the VMPS as I have been looking at them the past week or so. What's more interesting is what they say about their capacitor upgrade. I am currently in the process of my own little "capacitor shootout" and actually looking to do away with the AuriCap in favor of the Theta AudioCap (which I have been using for some time) and the Sonicap in cirtain applications.

I am wondering if other VMPS owners have experimented with other capacitors outside of VMPS's recomme ...

Bill

I would be very interested to hear you findings about various caps you have tested.

Thanks

Bill Baker · « **Reply #22 on:** 22 Mar 2004, 02:29 pm »

There have been some great recommendations here with a few I have not thought of. Proac is another I have not though about but a good choice.
Active speakers are out as I am mostly concerned with the evaluation of amplifiers, all tube amps to be exact.

Let me tell you a bit more of the "how" and "why":

What I am doing is re-thinking my tube amp mods and want a speaker that would be more sensitive to changes in such components as coupling capacitors, resistors, tubes, etc. I know there is not "one" perfect speaker for this but I am sure there are a few that would be better options.

I already have [my] standard for cabling and for those of you who are interested:

Interconnects: Clarity Labs Foxfire and Emberglow
Speaker Cbale: Clarity Labs Emberglow
Power Cords: Chris VenHaus Flavor 4 for amplifiers
Response RAM PC-2 for sources

Preamp will be a highly modified Ming-Da MC7-R tube unit and my current reference amplifiers are my highly modified RAM40M (ASL SPM-40) mono blocs and my personal SE502B

Source component: RAM Signature CD25

Current speakers used most often: Usher CP-7388 and Audio Note AZ-TWO with upgraded caps (for the SETs).

My other option is to go through the Ushers and upgrade these to fit my needs but the problem with these is that they are 4 ohm speakers and cannot be used with all the amps I mod. The 90dB sensitivity is not a problem for most amps otherthan the 300B SETs but that's where the ANs have come in handy.

WEEZ · « **Reply #23 on:** 22 Mar 2004, 04:28 pm »

Bill,

Coincident Speaker Technology makes speakers that are efficient and with impedences that are tube-friendly. (Don't know if they're in the same class as the Merlin's, though)

Just another thought....

WEEZ

JLM · « **Reply #24 on:** 23 Mar 2004, 11:41 am »

I doubt that there is a perfect speaker to use in the R & D process, because customers will always want to know if the component in question will sound good in their system. Amps especially need to synergize with a range of speakers. After that you need to be able to address the varying tastes of individual customers.

That said, I'd start with a single driver speaker that you're familar with. Single driver speakers tend to get the all important midrange the "most right" and of course with no crossover to confuse. Then I'd listen nearfield to take the room as much out of the equation as possible. Afterwards I'd try the "monsters" (low impedance, high impedance, planers, low efficiency, high efficiency, big bass, stratospheric highs, etc.).

IMO a good component has a minimum of synergy problems.

Rick Craig · « **Reply #25 on:** 23 Mar 2004, 01:24 pm »

I just finished a design that is a floorstanding speaker. It's a 8" 3-way with a Seas W22EX001 8" magnesium cone woofer, Morel MDM-55 dome mid, and Fountek ribbon tweeter. This is very revealing and detailed but neutral - perfect for what you need. A pair will run $1500-1800 depending on what veneer you want to use. Let me know if you're interested.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #26 on:** 24 Mar 2004, 01:25 pm »

Quote

I just finished a design that is a floorstanding speaker. It's a 8" 3-way with a Seas W22EX001 8" magnesium cone woofer, Morel MDM-55 dome mid, and Fountek ribbon tweeter. This is very revealing and detailed but neutral - perfect for what you need. A pair will run $1500-1800 depending on what veneer you want to use. Let me know if you're interested.

Rick, I must admit you have some very nice options and I have been through your site many times in the past. I am considering a pair of those big boys in the future.

Quote

I doubt that there is a perfect speaker to use in the R & D process, because customers will always want to know if the component in question will sound good in their system. Amps especially need to synergize with a range of speakers. After that you need to be able to address the varying tastes of individual customers.

JLM, you are 100% correct. There is no "Perfect speaker" to use. This is why I do have quite a few around that I use for various types of presentations. The reason I wanted an extremely revealing speaker is to see what my mods are capable of when paired with this type of speaker. For a warmer yet refined sound, I have found the Ushers to serve this purpose very well.

On that note, here is what I have decide upon for the time being. I am going to rebuild the x-overs my Usher CP-7388 speakers using all Sonicap capacitors in the midrange and upper end as well as retuning the midrange cavity of the speakers and maybe rewiring the whole setup. I will also be picking up a pair of CP-8571s.

Down the road, I may pick up a pair of AC-10s that use the ceramic mid and tweeter. I am not a fan of ceramic driver but they may suit my purpose.

viggen · « **Reply #27 on:** 25 Mar 2004, 02:11 am »

How about tannoy system/dtm dual concentric professional monitors. System 12 DMT is the best I think. The 10 ain't bad either. Both under 2K used.

claud · « **Reply #28 on:** 25 Mar 2004, 03:14 am »

I bought a nice pair of new B&W N804s about three years ago when I returned to audio from HT. Using a variety of amps from Classe CAP 151 through BelCanto Evo 200.2 and EVo2 and ending up with Cary V12R, I just thought that B&W speakers were great. In January I bought an eight month old pair of Merlin TSM-Ms with Osiris stands for $1600 on Agon as an alternative speaker set. After two cuts of my CD player while fine tuning the Merlin's positioning, It was evident that the Merlin's blew the B&Ws so far into the weeds that I no longer had any interest in listening to them. The B&Ws did have good resale though.
Lookin for great speakers? Listen to a pair of Merlins!

Tbadder1 · « **Reply #29 on:** 25 Mar 2004, 05:42 am »

If what I read is true, then I'll second or third the SP Technologies. I know that they are going to be my next purchase, precisely because they are so accurate.

sturgus · « **Reply #30 on:** 25 Mar 2004, 06:30 am »

Hey Bill,
First I would like to thank you sending out the gear to GAS. It looks like we may have close to twenty people before the day is over. We may have more stuff to listen to than the local salon. If you are looking for a speaker to use for evaluation then you should try the Merlin Tsm's. I have had the VSM's for about 6 years now and I am always amazed at how transparent they are. I think that the TSM comes from the same stock. It will not go very low but it will let you hear every change in the system. They also happen to be tube friendly. Once again thanks for letting us audition the gear.
Sturgus

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #31 on:** 25 Mar 2004, 06:43 am »

Quote from: tinear99

Take a look at the Green Mountain Europas for $880. Very accurate, see greenmountainaudio.com. Do a search at AA or Agon for more reviews/details from users. I'm still in the proccess of breaking mine in and am amazed at these speakers.

Europas are amazing speakers. Similar to the Merlins, just $1600 less.

They have also been favorably compared to the VMPS 626r.

Bill Baker · « **Reply #32 on:** 4 Apr 2004, 07:11 pm »

Well I want to thank everyone for the recommendations.

I am going to start off with modifying my Usher CP-7388s to suit my needs. I have been comparing these speakers with quite a few others and they have a lot of what I am looking for and the added benefit of lower bass extension. These will handle the full range end of things.

With the new Special Edition Ming-Da line, the Usher speakers are proving to be a favorite. As soon as I get replacement 805 tubes for the MC805-AA amp (40 watts), I beleive this will melt the soul of those who come in to listen to this combination. For the smaller 20 watt, MC34-B (6P3/6L6) amp, the little Usher X-718 are the top choice so far for a "melt in your chair" experience".

From there, I think I am going to grab a pair of the GMA Europas for myself as a lot of people I have talked to (even outside the Circle) have recommended auditioning these speakers. Not being a dealer for this line, I can go to town on a personal pair.

I am also looking to bring in another higher end speaker line that I beleive will fit all my needs and round out my selection nicely. I'll let you know what this line is as soon as I finalize a few more details.

John Casler · « **Reply #33 on:** 4 Apr 2004, 08:17 pm »

Quote from: Response Audio

Marbles, It is interesting that you mention the VMPS as I have been looking at them the past week or so. What's more interesting is what they say about their capacitor upgrade. I am currently in the process of my own little "capacitor shootout" and actually looking to do away with the AuriCap in favor of the Theta AudioCap (which I have been using for some time) and the Sonicap in cirtain applications.

I am wondering if other VMPS owners have experimented with other capacitors outside of VMPS's recomme ...

Hi Bill,

Brian actually has two cap upgrades: the Auric Caps and the TRT DynamiCaps.

http://www.altavistaaudio.com/caps.html

Knowing Brian, he has probably tried most of the others and felt these two offered the best sound improvment over the stock caps (which are hand trimmed to very fine specs)

Well set up for on axis nearfeild listening, these will provide a pretty "unforgiving" (read accurate) representation of what is on the source. They also have less room interaction than many speakers.

As far as the adjustments, the misconception is that they will "sound bad" unless they are constantly adjusted. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Any speaker that doesn't adjust has the same variance to any new equipment and none can take on a chameleon like characteristic of sounding good with "all".

In fact, if I read this right a "forgiving" speaker would not show you what you're looking for.

While the VMPS can be adjusted, if you are using them as "instruments" to see the difference between components, you would "not" want to adjust them, so the differences could be heard, not adjusted away.

I have evaluated a lot of tweaks, room treatments, cables, interconnects, source and drive electronics, and software with the VMPS and one thing for sure, they, can and will, show you the differences, "if" one knows what to listen for.

And I know with your experience, you do.

Tonto Yoder · « **Reply #34 on:** 4 Apr 2004, 08:52 pm »

Quote from: John Casler

Brian actually has two cap upgrades: the Auric Caps and the TRT DynamiCaps.
http://www.altavistaaudio.com/caps.html

John,
your post might be misconstrued as connecting Brian Cheney of VMPS with AltaVista (Michael Elliott's company). I assume you included the link just for informational purposes on the caps.

John Casler · « **Reply #35 on:** 4 Apr 2004, 09:00 pm »

Quote from: Tonto Yoder

Quote from: John Casler

Brian actually has two cap upgrades: the Auric Caps and the TRT DynamiCaps.
http://www.altavistaaudio.com/caps.html

John,
your post might be misconstrued as connecting Brian Cheney of VMPS with AltaVista (Michael Elliott's company). I assume you included the link just for informational purposes on the caps.

That is correct. I just saw the cap evaluation and it seems pretty accurate, but I am not aware of any connection between the site and VMPS.

reefrus · « **Reply #36 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 04:08 am »

Two more thumbs up for the SP Technology. If "Accurate" is on your top priority,then the Timepiece 2.0's will deliver. Use them for the Demo in the store or private use at home,you won't be disappointed.Best price/performance ratio. Except one thing:High power Amps are strongly recommended.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #37 on:** 5 Apr 2004, 09:08 am »

Quote from: Response Audio

From there, I think I am going to grab a pair of the GMA Europas for myself as a lot of people I have talked to (even outside the Circle) have recommended auditioning these speakers. Not being a dealer for this line, I can go to town on a personal pair.

Bill, Spotted this deal on Agon, very good price for used http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1086212255 .

Bill Baker · « **Reply #38 on:** 23 May 2004, 01:20 pm »

Well, I think the decission has been made. Without even hearing the speakers for myself and basing everything on a listening session at our Chicago location this weekend, it looks like the SP Technoligies Continuum is #1 on the list!
The speakers were driven by a variety of amplifiers ranging from one of our Signature Jolida 801s, Rogue Zeus, Crown Macro Reference, etc.
From what I was told, it looks like 60-70 watts of tube power would be the minimum required to drive these speakers while still maintaining good dynamic control. Obviously this was my main concern being that tubes are all I deal with.
I do want to see how our new Reference or Signature Jolida SE502A will drive these at 60 watts. I am not too concerned as I have beefed up the power supply in these models with more filtering capability and will also be running KT88s.
I would love to hear the Continuums being driven by our EXtreme ASL Hurricanes at 200 watts per but I will probably not have these amps still in my possesion when I get my own speakers here in NY. Maybe a pair of our Signature ASL Monsoons or a highly modified pair of Jolida 3000 mono blocs (200 watts with 211 tubes) will be ready at the time.
That's all I have for now.

neilr11 · « **Reply #39 on:** 23 May 2004, 01:37 pm »

Biil,
I live in Elgin (45 miles NW of Chicago) if you ever want to hear the Europas. Owned dozens of speakers and find these the most musically enjoying while being very accurate, tough combo to do. Everything from B&W Nautilus to 5 pairs of modded Maggies and owned/demo everything in between. Roy Johnson got these right and the amazing part is they sell for $880.

Let me know if you ever want to get together for a listen.
Neil