[ajzepp]

I've been on the forums for years, and along the way I've heard a lot of other Maggie owners talk about how slight adjustments in toe-in can make a big difference. Well, I guess either I've been really lucky in how I've had mine placed or this was a bunch of bunk. I moved into my apartment back in August, and I set up my 3.6s in pretty much the same orientation that they were in at my last place. The width of the room was only 1' less, so I didn't need to do much adjusting. I had a toe-in on them that was enough to where the speakers were aiming just to the side of my head when I was in the sweet spot.

Anyway, I had read a comment or two from Wendell that I recalled with regard to having the mains pretty much facing straight forward, so I decided to play around. To make a long story short, I was completely at a loss to realize that this orientation was yielding a fuller sound overall. The low end was improved and the sound stage became even bigger (and it was already pretty damn big). I brought a non-audiophile lady friend over (my usual litmus test, since I know she doesn't give a crap about this stuff) and asked her which orientation sounded better, not telling her beforehand of my findings. She confirmed what I had found and even went so far as to say "it wasn't even close".

Now I know all about the impact of the room, but this really caught me by surprise. Back when I had MMGs, I played around with placement ad nauseum. I don't ever recall this sort of stark contrast between one placement and another. Have any of you guys experienced this with your maggies?? 

[steve k]

What Wendell says is interestng because the owner's manual calls for  toe-in toward the listening position. When I've turned mine out so they're straight, I find I get a hole in the middle of the soundstage. I've always toed mine in so the axes intersect behind my head in the listening position. I keep the ribbons inside so the image is more compact and focused. Ribbons out gives a wider soudstage but to me the focus is more diffuse and instrument locations are more vague. Do you use the ribbons outboard?
steve

[ajzepp]

Yep, what you just described is exactly how I used to have my MMGs. That's what sounded best to me. But now with the 3.6s I have the ribbons to the outside with the panels facing ALMOST perfectly straight ahead with just a touch of toe-in. I'm gonna have to experiment more, cause this is really weird. I haven't tried ribbons in for quite a while, so I'm gonna try that next. I know I liked with the MMGs, so maybe that will also be the case with these big boys.

And I hope I'm not mis-quoting Wendell, cause I thought for sure the quote I read was from when he was demoing the 3.7s at CES (or whatever show it was). I thought he said he had the mains facing straight out, and then the 1.6s in back toed-in significantly. I won't swear by that, though...I tend to read a lot of opinions when it comes to Maggies 


EDIT: Okay, looking at the pics from CES, they had the 3.7 toed-in, but not nearly as much as I had my 3.6s. Maybe I need to find a happy medium and give another listen..toe them in a bit less than what I had them originally, but not as much as having them face straight fowrward?

[steve k]

How far apart are your 3.6's and how far do you sit from them? Distance to side walls and rear wall?
I'm just trying to get a fix on how your setup compares to mine.
steve

[ajzepp]

How far apart are your 3.6's and how far do you sit from them? Distance to side walls and rear wall?
I'm just trying to get a fix on how your setup compares to mine.
steve

Here's a Pic of the set-up from when I first moved in a few months ago. They are about 2.5-3' from each side wall (to the edge of the speaker), and about 3' from the front wall to the nearest edge. They were toed-in more than what they appear in this pic, so I'm going to try to go back in that direction to see if the sound changes. I just can't believe how small adjustments make a difference 

Oh, and my seating is about 13' from the front wall, so that makes the distance about 10' from the speaker plane.

[steve k]

I sit closer-- about 8 feet. Mine are about 5 feet apart, 3 feet off the side walls and 4 feet off the front wall. I should go back to running them flat just for kicks. I've always toed them in until the image closes in the center.

[ajzepp]

I sit closer-- about 8 feet. Mine are about 5 feet apart, 3 feet off the side walls and 4 feet off the front wall. I should go back to running them flat just for kicks. I've always toed them in until the image closes in the center.

If you do that, let me know about your experience...I don't know why I never noticed this much difference before, but now that I have I'm really wanting to get them dialed in. They sound really good in every orientation I've tried, but sometimes they seem to REALLY impress with a particular position.

You thought about the 3.7s at all?

[flintstone]

I have always ran my Apogee Duetta Sigs with no toe (other than when I first got them years ago, and played around with everything). I have them a little over 5' out, mr/tw ribbon inside, and 9' apart.........I sit around 10' back.

I haven't looked at my manual in years....but I'm pretty sure it says 1" toe-in at most for best sound.


Dave

[ajzepp]

I have always ran my Apogee Duetta Sigs with no toe (other than when I first got them years ago, and played around with everything). I have them a little over 5' out, mr/tw ribbon inside, and 9' apart.........I sit around 10' back.

I haven't looked at my manual in years....but I'm pretty sure it says 1" toe-in at most for best sound.


Dave

Those speakers are so cool...and that's a beautiful room 

[SteveFord]

I agree, those Apogees are beautiful.
To throw in my 2 cents, ribbons on the outside with maybe an inch and a half of toe in works best with the 3.6s in the living room.
They throw a wall to wall soundstage and with some recordings I've actually heard a soundstage which is larger than the room itself!
Each speaker is:
2' from side wall
4' from rear wall
14' from listening position and
5 1/2 foot space inbetween the speakers - roughly 7 1/2 foot center to center.

[ajzepp]

Steve, that 1.5" toe-in is what I'm gonna go for, I think. I have clearly discerned that no toe-in is much better than significant toe-in, so I'll have them closer to straight forward than not. Once I finally get placement set I can get my Mye stands hooked up again. They've been sitting in my trunk for a couple months lol

[flintstone]

Thanks guys, (ajzepp)..........I think you are on the right track. I would play around with 0-2" toe-in over a few days time.


Dave

[pelliott321]

This is an old picture, as I am doing a lot of rearranging now.
My room has truncated corners behind the Mag IIIa's.  The outside edge of the speakers are about 2ft from the walls and about four feet from the plane of the front wall. Ribbons on the out side and are now toed in about 2 inches(less than in the pic).  Room is 12 ft wide. My seat is about 7ft from the center of the panel. 
Most of my listening is small ensembles, jazz and chamber music or solo performances and this set up works well for that.  Large groups, big bands, orchestras I would probably wish I could rotate straight.  Need big motorized turntables with remote control to adjust while listening. That would be a hoot     

[flintstone]

pelliott321 ...............very nice frame build, outstanding looking. I usually don't care much for most of these (the PG builds anyway) because they look to much like a big picture frame. (although I understand the quality of sound part regardless).

If I was Peter Gunn, I'd copy your design 


Dave

[pelliott321]

thanks for the kind words flintstone.
funny story:  when I published this picture over at AA/Planer PG commented that they looked funny.  These are made out of Paduak and are joined with pocket screws and glue. The main difference in design is that I did away with the big heavy base that his design uses. I always thought the purpose of an external xover was to get away form vibrations, so I chose to spike the bottom corners and use a support pole from the top relying on the tripod form and put the xover box spiked to the floor also.  It works well, very steady, free from vibrations that you can feel   


 

[JackD201]

I had SMGcs and 1.6QRs. The SMGcs were purchased second hand and while always pleasant were kind of dull no matter how I placed them. Heck they might have not even been in proper condition. The 1.6s while not difficult to place was a lot more responsive to small changes. I guess you can say I have had a similar experience.

[pelliott321]

I had Vandersteen 2Ce sigs before which I thought were pretty good speakers, but the Maggys made them sound like little toys.  Even the slightest change to my system are now most noticeable. 

[TONEPUB]

My Magnepans have never been as critical as the MartinLogan speakers I've owned.  The CLX's were the fussiest speaker I've ever set up, but the end results justified it!

But the Magnepans certainly will deliver a bit more imaging performance (especially the more recent ribbon tweeter models) if you spend a little more care with setup.

Try and have toe in matched from speaker to speaker and distance from the rear wall if you can.

[ajzepp]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys....sounds like you all have had similar experiences with regard to toe-in and placement. Also sounds like the consensus is definitely that a slight toe-in is the way to go, so I think that's what I'm going to stick with. I'm glad I was able to determine that my toe-in was a bit too much, though....they have really opened up in the last several days.

Pelliott, those are beautiful!