[putz]

Anyone have any experience with an older SOTA Sapphire? I've been looking to upgrade my Project Debut 3 and found a used Sapphire with a SME 3009II arm for a good price available locally. I've read pretty good things about SOTA and was hoping some of you might chime in before I pull the trigger.

[thunderbrick]

I like mine very much, but the motor failed after over 25 years.  A $600 motor upgrade.

What do you consider a good price?  If $500 or less I'd snatch it up.  Is that the reflex clamp?  If so, that's a nice bonus.

[TONEPUB]

If you can, get the serial number and call SOTA on monday to see what any potential service
upgrades will cost...

That will make it a lot easier to decide.

The SME 3009 is a good arm, but they really need to be rebuilt and rewired to perform at their best.  Otherwise, pretty dark sounding.

This guy does the best job at sorting these arms out:

http://www.smetonearms.com/

[putz]

I believe it's an Orsonic Clamp which I have never heard of. He's also including a Grado Cart, model # TBA. Includes an Outboard Power Supply which I assume is standard?

He said Kurt at SOTA serviced it recently, bearing replacement, new belt, etc.

I'll ask for the Serial #. What service upgrades might be necessary?

Price is higher than $500.

[JakeJ]

That seems a bit high but take this with a grain of salt as I can only speak from my own experience.
 
I bought a series I about ten years ago that had a Sumiko FT-3 tonearm and a BPS for $400.  I traded in my dying Denon DP-30F and got $160 in credit toward the SOTA, so that's $240 out of pocket.  Two years later the motor failed so I contacted a SOTA dealer to see about a replacement.  The new motors and their associated controller had changed enough that retrofitting was ruled out...but.  SOTA offered me $450 in trade value of the old table towards a new series V.
 
The only down side was the new table was fitted with a Grham Robin arm which I never really liked and I upgraded to a new SME M2-9 and am very happy with the results.
 
Hope that helps.

[thunderbrick]

I believe it's an Orsonic Clamp which I have never heard of. He's also including a Grado Cart, model # TBA. Includes an Outboard Power Supply which I assume is standard?

He said Kurt at SOTA serviced it recently, bearing replacement, new belt, etc.

I'll ask for the Serial #. What service upgrades might be necessary?

Price is higher than $500.

Find out what Kurt did for it.  That could make it a better, or even great, deal.  Mine was a real early model and there was almost nothing that couldn't be replaced or upgraded.  Just a matter of budget.

[Ericus Rex]

That seems a bit high

But isn't the arm alone worth $300+?

[orthobiz]

There's a recent review of a current Sota Sapphire (I'm pretty sure it's in The Absolute Sound) and it speaks to the upgradeability of these TT's. Also, this is generally a friendly bunch hanging out here (unless you talk about cables or Lofgren v. Baerwald cartridge alignment,  ) so feel free to post the real asking price and other details. You're likely to get good advice.

Paul

[putz]

Owner provided me this link regarding improvement to SME tonearm
http://www.smetonearms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=75&zenid=cf5ebca6fdd8f2ade799827579308933   

Not sure if arm was actually sent to smetonearms for service. I'll ask.

Cartridge is Grado x1+

Regarding service owner said: "it's been refurbed with new sapphire bearing etc and resistors replaced. That's about all Kurt said was necessary."

I have the Serial # for the table. I'll check with Kurt on Monday

[BaMorin]

Owner provided me this link regarding improvement to SME tonearm
http://www.smetonearms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=75&zenid=cf5ebca6fdd8f2ade799827579308933   

Not sure if arm was actually sent to smetonearms for service. I'll ask.

Cartridge is Grado x1+

Regarding service owner said: "it's been refurbed with new sapphire bearing etc and resistors replaced. That's about all Kurt said was necessary."

I have the Serial # for the table. I'll check with Kurt on Monday

For $100.00 the X-1 Cart can be upgraded with the 8MZ stylus, or upgraded to the MCZ stylus for $150.00   Look up  our own DaveyW's website for sound clips of those combinations as well as other carts.  The X-1 is today's Grado Silver.
the Silver body with MCZ stylus, and properly loaded is pretty tough to beat for under $500-600.  The SME arm likes Grado carts BTW. A dab of 300,000 cst on the knife bearings does wonders.

[neobop]

I have one from the '80s that looks almost exactly like that. Even the wood finish is the same. Mine has a tinted dust cover (original) and the hinges look different.

I was never partial to the sound of the Sapphire. I took it in trade in the early '90s hoping I could coax a lot more from it. I guess part of the problem was that I traded a Goldmund Studietto for it and a bunch of cash. I really needed the cash, but it wasn't as close as I had hoped.

Speed stability isn't great even with a new belt and clean pulley. The speed regulator pots work, if cleaned, but really need replacing. With the orig pots, speed has to be re-set for each listening session. This requires a strobe disc on top of the record. The power supply (24V) is nothing to write home about either. You have to plug the TT in before you plug it in the wall or you're likely to blow the fuse. If your fuse has been replaced with a higher value one, you'll blow the transformer. That's what happened to me. My tech replaced the transformer with a bigger one. Not sure if it improved things.

The suspension is a mess. No other way to describe it. I used to have a Linn LP12. Although I eventually abandoned that, but they do know how to set-up/adjust a suspension. I also set them up professionally. With the 4 spring Sota suspension I doubt if there's any way to fine tune the way it bounces and get it perfect. You can get it pretty close though. The extra mass involved is what keeps it stable. They do supply 2 lead bars you can use near the arm and a cup that can be filled with lead shot. The whole bottom of the deck is suspended. This bottom plate is 1/2" MDF with 1/8" lead on top of that. The platter & bearing housing  is bolted to that and the corners (other than the one near the arm) have blocks of lead or stone. There are 4 bolts that are anchored on the underside of the plinth or top deck. This plinth is 1/2" MDF or treated wood. These bolts, near the plinth are interrupted with springs. The bolts go down through the bottom and are secured on the underside.

On the plus side, the platter and bearing are top drawer. The platter is ceramic and has lead insert on the underside like a VPI. I think it weighs 14lbs. The bearing is inverted, or so they say. I haven't taken it apart. Rather than an acrylic or delrin platter like some TTs, yours has the Supermat, like mine. I have the big Sota clamp but I doubt if there's much difference with the Orsonic.

I really wanted to tell you what to expect, in more ultimate terms that it's a good or bad value for the $. I think Thunderbrick has the right idea. Find out exactly what was done. When you send your table to Sota, they check it out and recommend upgrades. You can have some stuff done and not others, according to your budget. You can sometimes spend $2K or close to it,  depending. A new belt and bearing is good, but a drop in the bucket.
neo

[JakeJ]

neobop,

How did you find the sonic abilities of that SOTA and what did you move to after that?

[GBB]

I also owned one of these back in the 90's.  I had mine upgraded to the vacuum hold down version - which makes it equivalent to a Sota Star Sapphire.  I used it with a Grado Signature tonearm and various different cartridges.
Like neobop, I never quite warmed up to the sound.  My conclusion is that I didn't like suspended turntable like the Sota or the Linn and I've since moved on to turntables with either very stiff suspensions or no suspension at all.  I used a Teres turntable for a while and I think that is a much more enjoyable table.

---Gary

[neobop]

neobop,

How did you find the sonic abilities of that SOTA and what did you move to after that?

Hi Jake,
Speed stability is really important to me. The Goldmund was a no brainer. I was working in a high end shop that had virtually everything. Lines we didn't carry could be had from other dealers or it would come in used. Back then a Sapphire or a VPI was $1K. I think the Gyrodec was around $1200 and an Oracle Delphi was a little more. Hard to remember the prices exactly. But I needed a new deck. Anyway, when Goldmund came out with the Studio and Studietto, my mind was made up. The Studietto was $2200 list w/o arm. Even at dealer cost I had to bite the bullet but it was worth it. I had a Zeta on there and a Genesis 1000. It required my getting a Studio spring to balance the suspension, but the DD speed on a  table like that was a revelation. Before that I had an LP12.

The Sapphire, unlike the LP12, has a bit of that ponderous heavy-platter belt drive syndrome.  The original TNT had it in spades. The Sapphire was pretty good though, it didn't sound too thick and only a little bit dead. With a stable platform, the suspension not going sideways, and speed adjusted, it can actually sound like music. Also depends on the arm. Mine came with an Alphason 100S which is a good match for the table. Actually, a good match for lots of tables.

Well my glory days for exotic tables are over, at least for now. I have 5 tables I picked up here and there. A Kenwood KD-500, a 770d, a Denon 1250, and a Sony PS-X50. I have a few different arms that I mix and match. I can't listen to most inexpensive belt drivers, especially vintage ones. I modify the tables according to their needs.

I'll tell you something else. One of those vintage Kenwoods with the faux marble base like a KD-500, 550, 600 or 650 will beat the pants off my Sapphire. That's why it's taken apart and I can describe the insides. I was going to use the platter/bearing and part of the bottom to make a custom table with a Teres rim drive. I still might, but the motor is $1700 and right now it's not doable. I just saw a mint 650 on Agon - went for $250 or 300. Hey Putz, you read me?
LOL what a handle,
neo

[JakeJ]

Neo,

Thanks for that very concise and useful info.  That reaffirms some input I have gotten locally and has me leaning toward trying a non- suspended TT.


Putz, this is good info these guys are puttin' out here.


Lastly I'll repeat that the most significant upgrade I did to either of the SOTAs I have owned is to change tonearms from the Graham Robin (dark and muddy) to the SME M2-9 which removed that dark muddy sound and brought light and clarity to my analog playback.  Confirmed by local audio bud that is coaxing me towards trying non-suspended.

[pansixt]

I have a Sapphire with the same finish which has the FT3 arm and tinted cover that I bought in '92. 
The previous owner installed what I believe is a VPI clamp.
Last month I had the Joe Grado stylus replaced and we tested it at DejaVu here in northern VA with their system and it still performed flawlessly.
This table survived many parties and the raising of teenagers and moves from coast to coast and back.
All in all a solid table which has treated me far better than I have treated it.

[neobop]

Yea, it is built like a tank, As long as you transport it properly when you move, it should be good to go. When transporting, screw the rubber feet all the way up. The suspension should be defeated by doing this and the sub-chassis will be up against the bottom of the arm board support. Then stuff some cardboard between the platter and the plinth. This will prevent sideways movement.

I read that the original Sapphire had an inboard power supply, and that's the one to be avoided unless you get a really good price and plan to upgrade it. It is a nice looking table, and has potential for greatness, depending on what you're willing to do. Maybe I'll take a few pics so you can see what it is inside.

These are some of the mods I've read about, but haven't done:
Defeat the suspension entirely by replacing the springs with sorbothane, (possibly compressed). You could also defeat it by replacing the bolt/spring with just a bolt. Suspension height is adjusted from underneath.

Ditch the motor and electronics for a better motor and power supply. I'm not sure who's motor is best if you're keeping the plinth.

My original plan was to keep the oak base and use it as a platform for another deck. IMO the top, the part that attaches to the oak sides is the biggest downfall of the design. it needs to be reinforced with steel or aluminum or replaced. Both the bolts for the feet and springs (7 total) are attached to the underside of the top. I don't know how they make them now, but mine needs help. There's not a lot of room on the top to work with so it would be a little tricky. Maybe removing the bolts for the feet and using the oak sides would be an improvement, I'm not sure if that would be better than just reinforcing the top. Also the armboard supporting structure could use some help IMO. It's pretty thick and looks like it's entirely MDF. If this was laminated with other material, it should sound better.

I don't know what upgrades Sota does if you send it to them, but I doubt if it includes anything I've listed except a motor upgrade. To repeat, I have not done any of these mods. They are what I have read about, or think needs doing.
neo

[neobop]

Here are a few pics. My batteries gave out so I'll add more later.

[DustyC]

Putz,
I had a dealer demo from '89 that looked just like neobop's. It had a black top deck, oak finish on the sides, larger hinges than the ones in your photo and a tinted dustcover. The hinges can be tightened to hold the cover at a canted angle but I wouldn't recommend it (the cover can crack around the hinges). I used a MMT arm and a Grado (MTE? It was about $250)

Putting aside the issues of sound quality (ask 20 people and you'll get 20 different answers) my Sota distinguished itself by never needing any adjustments once it's set. Neobop's speed issues is a new one on me, I've never heard of resetting the speed for each listening session, but maybe the adjustment pots were flaky. I did think that the table had speed issues when listening to piano recordings but not all piano records had this problem. It was suggested by a friend that some of my records might have off center holes which would also cause this.

My table had a motor ticking noise about 9 years later which was fixed by my dealer and the thing remained trouble free and has run fine for the person I sold it to. It was no muss no fuss unit that took in account all the issues of vinyl playback and provided a cost effective solution. (cost effective by being made with MDF as opposed to metal, stone or acrylic). Another nice thing about the Sota is that you can upgrade the table to the latest model without selling it. (some people choose to keep the exotic wood plinth for example, and switch out for new internal parts)

I think the 2 best features of the table are the ability to use a wide variety of arms and still get it balanced, and the spring suspension system. My previous tables were solid plinth models that were not immune to acoustic and mechanical feedback so anytime the tunes got cranked, I had problems. Buying a isolation based helped but I thought it was a band-aid for a problem that should have been addressed by the mfgr. The Sota had no issues at all and I was able to ditch the isolation base.

Another best feature that I got to sample was the vacuum clamping system. Again, no muss no fuss and this item made a noticable difference over an unclamped record.

If the price is right ($500?) I would hop on it. If Sota has already looked and serviced it, all the better. If you decide it's not your cup o tea you can always resell and get something else. If you decide to get a solid plinth table and you don't have feedback issues then great. You can spend the bucks on a better arm or cartridge. BUT if you do, expect to pay more bucks for a solution to make the 'table useable for your suitation.

Questions? E-mail me.
 

[putz]

Seller is asking $1,000, probably go lower? I was thinking $800, although some of you recommended $500 as a grab it price. I looked on Audiogon and asking prices seem to be in the $1,000 range for old Sapphires with tonearm. Tried caling SOTA a couple of times and keep getting voicemail and no return call yet.

I already have a Target wall mount screwed into studs due to my old Thorens skipping whenever someone walked by it. Not sure if this negates the benefits of the Suspension system in the SOTA.

I guess the question is: will this table be a marked improvement over my Debut III which has acrylic platter and Speed Box 2 (see last pic)

Here's a couple more pics