[Carlman]

I'm getting an Ortofon cartridge because it was suggested to me over a Goldring 1012GX at Needledoctor when I bought my table.  (Pro-Ject RM4)

Now that I've told some of my friends, they scoff at the Ortofon as 'a nail' and that is no good.

I will try it however if it's not good, is a Denon DL-160 or Sumiko Blue Note's a good step up?

I'm very new to selecting a cartridge.  I guess it's like tubes.  I like it to sound like real music and not like it's trying to be anything more.  

Preamps:
I'm trying to narrow it down to the component but.. so far the Hagerman Bugle preamp isn't cutting it for me.  Right now I'm putting it in a case and using the recommended power supply to try to get a little more dynamics out of it.  However my guess is that'll be in the Trading Post in a couple of months.  I'll be comparing it to a Decware phono pre just to have some differences to check.

I'm looking for smooth, dynamic sound with all the musicality I can get.

So, can anyone help with some descriptions or comparisons of those cartridges?  Or something else that's just great in the 200 USD range?  

What's the normal cost of a good phono pre?  What are some things to look for?  

Sorry for all the newbie questions.  Hope someone can help.

-Carl

[WEEZ]

Carlman,

It might be out of your price range- but the wood body Grado carts. have that midrange magic.

WEEZ

[Psychicanimal]

Now that I've told some of my friends, they scoff at the Ortofon as 'a nail' and that is no good.

Test your friends:

Tell them you re going to sell the Project and buy a Technics 1200 and buy the KAB modifications.  If they "scoff" at the idea, that tells you how much they really know.

Regarding tubes, I'd not use them in your budget.  Too noisy.  Stick to solid state and you'll get better results.

I have an Ortofon X-5 MC (2.5 mV) and a KAB modded Stanton Groovemaster II.  Have had Sumiko BP, Shure V15 III, AT Shibata (don't remember model), Grado Prestige Blue, Pickering.  The modded Stanton DJ cartridge is the one with the midrange of a $1,500 MC.   For your TT it would be the Stanton 881S.  Find out if it's compatible w/ your tonearm.  Will need 75KOhm loading, I think.  My Stanton is 75K Ohm.

[lonewolfny42]

Carl, which model Ortofon ? I've got an Ortofon X3-MC....been happy with it for awhile.  

[Agrippa]

In my opinion, Ortofon is at it's best in the higher price ranges, from the OM 30 Supreme and upwards.  The "cheap" ones are not bad, but neither are they particularly good when compared to the alternatives.

Your dealer, quite frankly, did you a disservice, as the mid-range Goldrings are superb.  I don't really know the particular cartridge in question, but the 1022 and in particular the 1042 represent, in the opinion of many, the very, very best at their price points ($250-350).  The only real difference between those and the 1012 is the stylus and as the difference is very small I would, unfortunately, imagine you narrowly missed out on a great-sounding cartridge.  Ortofon cartridges at the same price point are certainly not bad, but neither are they any kind of serious competition to the Goldrings.

Seriously great cartridges around this price (250-350) you might want to consider are:

Goldring 1042 (MM) or Eroica (MC)
Denon DL 103 (MC) - NB: may be a little too "stiff" (low compliance) for your arm!
Grado Platinum (MM)
Benz Micro Gold (MC)

If you just can't stretch that far, the Goldring 1006 and 1012, Benz Micro MC20E2, Grado Gold or Denon DL-160 will give you 85% of what you get from the above.  All play, as you say, "like real music".  In this class you won't get overly analytical cartridges anyway.

As for a pre, I fear you'll not get anything "great" in the $200 range, but plain, old "good" is certainly doable.  These are the main contenders in the class in my opinion:

Creek OBH-8 or 9
Project Phonobox SE

The performance of either will complement your RPM-4 very nicely and give you exactly the sound you're looking for (providing they match with your remaing equipment of course).

If I were you, however, I would seriously consider buying a phono stage "to grow with", in case you decide to upgrade your 'table, arm or cartridge in the future, in which case these won't really do....  If you might be prepared to shell out approx. $4-500, these RIAAs will serve you well even with a high-level analogue rig:

Project Tube Box
Creek OBH-15

In my opinion the Goldring 1042 and Project Tube Box would be a truly outstanding combination and take you very far along the route to vinyl heaven.  The Tube Box will last you through many upgrades, as it's sound can be "tweaked" by changing the tubes inside.  This would be my choice if I were in your position today!

Hope some of this was of some help to you.

Agrippa

[Agrippa]

By the way - don't let anybody tell you your turntable isn't good enough!  The RPM-4 is a truly excellent deck and quite frankly more or less unmatched at it's price point.

Agrippa

[Tonto Yoder]

In my opinion, Ortofon is at its best in the higher price ranges, from the OM 30 Supreme and upwards. .......

Your dealer, quite frankly, did you a disservice, as the mid-range Goldrings are superb.  I don't really know the particular cartridge in question, but the 1022 and in particular the 1042 represent, in the opinion of many, the very, very best at their price points ($250-350).  The only real differenc ...

My recollection is that BOTH the Ortofon OM series and the Goldring 1000 series are upgradable by changing just the stylus????? In other words, someone could buy either entry level cartridge to save a few $$ and later buy the "better"/more expensive stylus if he decides vinyl is a  medium he wants to pursue.

BTW, isn't the Denon 103 a low output cartridge that wouldn't be suitable with the Hagerman Bugle that Carlman is trying to use???

[Agrippa]

"BTW, isn't the Denon 103 a low output cartridge that wouldn't be suitable with the Hagerman Bugle that Carlman is trying to use???"

He's shopping for both a cartridge and a phono stage though, isn't he?  If not, then the 103 will be unsuitable, as the output is 0.3mV if I remember correctly.

Not sure about the Ortofons, but I know the Goldring 1022 is upgradable like you mention to a 1042 - should have mentioned that, I guess.  Not entirely certain about the lower models, but you may well be right there too.

Agrippa

[Scott F.]

Hiya Carlman,

Preamps:
I'm trying to narrow it down to the component but.. so far the Hagerman Bugle preamp isn't cutting it for me. Right now I'm putting it in a case and using the recommended power supply to try to get a little more dynamics out of it. However my guess is that'll be in the Trading Post in a couple of months. I'll be comparing it to a Decware phono pre just to have some differences to check.

I'm looking for smooth, dynamic sound with all the musicality I can get.

So, can anyone help with some descriptions or comparisons of those cartridges? Or something else that's just great in the 200 USD range?

Why don't you give Steve K or Sturgus a PM. Steve owns the Hagermann. At our last few get-togethers I've brought the GramAmp 2 (and the Jazz Club). They have both heard the GramAmp 2 and will sing it's praises.

At $150, I doubt you can find a better phono pre, honest. Like I said, PM Steve or Sturgus. They'll give you the straight skinny. You can find those guys down at the GAS regional circle.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/jazzclub_e.html

[nature boy]

I can endorse the Gram Slee Amp's, having listened to the Amp 2 signature edition and ERA Gold Mk5.   Combined with a MM or high output MC cartridge, very musical.

I listened to both of these before puchasing a Dynavector P-75 phono preamp.  The ERA Gold Mk5 and P-75 were very close.  The P-75 has more future flexibility with options for low output MC cartridges, so I went this way.

If I were you, I lwould ook for a used Gram Slee Amp 2 signature edition on Audiogon, or bump your budget and spring for a new one.  

I have found cartridge recommendations in this price range tough and I'm unfamiliar with your turntable.  Best of luck, vinyl sounds great.

NB

[nature boy]

I can endorse the Gram Slee Amp's, having listened to the Amp 2 signature edition and ERA Gold Mk5.   Combined with a MM or high output MC cartridge, very musical.

I listened to both of these before puchasing a Dynavector P-75 phono preamp.  The ERA Gold Mk5 and P-75 were very close.  The P-75 has more future flexibility with options for low output MC cartridges, so I went this way.

If I were you, I lwould ook for a used Gram Slee Amp 2 signature edition on Audiogon, or bump your budget and spring for a new one.  

I have found cartridge recommendations in this price range tough and I'm unfamiliar with your turntable.  Best of luck, vinyl sounds great.

NB

[Carlman]

Thank you all very much for the responses, suggestions, and thoughtfulness.  I've had a good thing happen... An AC member contacted me with a spare Goldring 1042 to compare to the OM20 super cartridge.  So, I'll be able to compare them.  

I should've gone with a high output moving coil in hindsight but I forgot they made high output MC's.  So, I told the sales dude I wanted I wanted to stick with MM because I was using it with the Bugle *for now*....

To clarify, I have a Bugle, and I'm building it to be about the best Bugle anyone's ever heard.  Vampire connectors, continuous cast copper wiring, copper solder, large caps on the PS, better opamps, etc.  However, if after all that, it still doesn't do it for me, I'll sell it for *hopefully* the cost of parts.

I've heard good things about the Gram Slee and I thought it was a thousand bucks... so, I hadn't really looked at it.  150 is perfect.  I was considering a Decware phono pre but I've since done some research and realized that's not for me.  Plus, it's $400 used.

Maybe I'll compare some pre's soon.  I think Agrippa's suggestion about the Project tube box might be worth checking out as well... .especially since I'll have the 1042 to hear.  Thanks again.  

For cartridges, the Denon DL160 was the first choice from the guy that poo-poo'd the OM20.  The DL103 would have been my first choice if I had a MC capable pre.  I know it's good.  I think the comparison will help me a lot in distinguishing likes/dislikes of cartridges in general.


Much to think about now... hmmmm...

-C

[Carlman]

OH.. and one more thing, I spoke to Walter at Underwood HiFi in GA.  He said that Channel Islands makes a phono that would be a great match for the Music Hall/Sumiko/Project tables and Goldring cart's.  He said the phono pre was developed while using a Music Hall/Goldring combo.  So, that may be a contender as well.  I have a demo on the way.

-C

[Rocket]

Hi Carl,

What is wrong with the sound of the bugle?

I certainly can't recommend the perreaux sxv-1 as it has had major hum issues, mostly fixed now thankx to the expertise of mgalushu.

Check out Scott's review of the gram amp2 se which seems to get a lot of good press.

Many years ago i had an ortofon om20 and it sounded dull and lifeless.  I replaced it with a shure 97he mm cartridge and it was a lot better.

Btw your project turntable is fine (i almost bought the perspective project tt) and if you can get the cartridge/phonostage combination right it will really sing.

Best wishes

Rod

[Carlman]

Hi Carl,

What is wrong with the sound of the bugle?...

What's wrong is: Me, lack of experience, and possibly the Bugle's personality. *in that order*

The analog system I have now is a bit lifeless and uninvolving to me.  The midrange is far from palpable.  HOWEVER I don't know if it's the pre, my TT, or the cartridge (yet)... I suspect it's the pre but I don't know.  Some experimentation will yield a flood of new adjectives.

I have very little experience with phono pre's... mostly what was included in preamp's I've owned in the past.  (The best I've heard with my TT is an AI-2d.  It's my benchmark.)

So, hopefully next week and the week after will reveal the cause of my unhappiness with reproduction from vinyl.  I know it can be very good, alive, and enjoyable.  I will have it!

-C

[Psychicanimal]

The analog system I have now is a bit lifeless and uninvolving to me. The midrange is far from palpable. HOWEVER I don't know if it's the pre, my TT, or the cartridge (yet)... I suspect it's the pre but I don't know....

Man, the answers are...

(I've said them before).

[Rocket]

Hi Carl,

Well buddy it sounds like you need to do one of your interesting listening comparisons with invited guests   .

Seriously try to obtain some different phonostages, imo experience they can make a major difference in sound quality.

I still can't get my vinyl system to sound as good as when i had an old cambridge audio integrated.  I only used the phonostage and ran it into my preamp.

I did have the ortofon om20 and didn't like it as i mentioned previously.

regards

rod

[lcrim]

Carlman:
I just recently found an Antique Sound Labs Mini Phono pre, at a reduced price because the ASL logo was applied upside down and have been more or less pleased with it as compared to what was there previously, a Rotel SS unit.  But the issue was clarified for me by having something else to compare with the Rotel.  Even the Rat Shack phono pre would give you some point of comparison to the Bugle and this method helped me.  
I wanted a tubed pre but even that wasn't engraved in stone.  The Benz MC20E2, that came installed when I bought my Rega used, is a decent, low price, hi-output MC that while eminently replaceable, allows me to learn and enjoy the format w/o a huge monetary investment.

Larry

[Carlman]

Just an update... the Project RM-4 w/ pre-mounted Ortofon OM-20 is up and running.  My first impression was that it might be kind of lame because it's so light.  The Sony probably weighs twice as much.  Plus, it didn't seem really smooth to rotate the platter... kind of scritchy.  However, I forgot about that once adjusted and spinning some Bill Evans.

Another thing I noted was the difference in operation and sound.  With the Sony you just push buttons... With the Project I need a muscle relaxer before touching it.  I guessed about the anti-skating.  The way the instructions read don't make it obvious enough for me.  I have it set to the lightest.

Balancing the tonearm was really hard.  If I slide the tonearm weight all the way onto the arm, there's not enough room to balance it.  It's practically dangling off the end of the arm now.  When I dialed 5 grams into it, it didn't sound so great... like the needle wasn't all the way in the groove.  However if I added a couple more, it gets much, much better. (says about 7 or 8 grams)  OM 20 says it wants 5.  Something's wrong...

Ok, all that aside, when adjusted the way I have it, it sounds VERY good even with the battery-operated Bugle.  I think the OM-20 is a little thin sounding but overall, the sound is 10 times better than my old table.  The imaging and smoothness of the highs is dramatically better than the Sony.

The tonearm is very heavy compared to other tables I've messed with... almost like it's filled with something.  It sounds great though.  I can't wait to try a couple of cartridges and see if it gets even better.

-C

[Agrippa]

Hey, I did say it was a good deck, didn't I?

As far as I'm concerned, Project provides more bang for the buck than anything else...period.  Lots of better decks around of course, but not for the money and straight out of the box.

The Project 9 arm is OK, but not great.  Again though, at the price you can't quibble about the quality of it.  In fact, I'd say it's about on a par with the way-too-hyped RB300 and just as versatile.  It'll take low, medium and high (but not too high) compliance PUs and not complain at all.  Optimum compliance I'd say is between 12 and 20.

As you say, the Ortofon OM-20 is a bit on the shrill side and you'll be much better off with something else.  Ortofon really only gets to be really good from OM-30 Supreme and up, but here and there even above the 30 the odd model is a bit too shrill.  For my liking, that is.  I'd strongly suggest (again probably) the Goldring 1042 or a Grado Platinum Reference, both of whom have a lovely, warm sound.  Not warm in the sense that they gloss over details and aren't dynamic - they're just extremely easy to like because they give you the full picture (rather than concentrate on the details) and excel at sucking you right into the music.

The Grado might pick up a little more surface noise than the Goldring on old records (can't quite remember), but on my old Project 6.9 it really did shine.  As did the Goldring for that sake.

Pick up either of these and I believe you'll be spinning the discs until late night at every opportunity.  I wouldn't really think about anything more expensive than those however, as they are about as good PUs as the quality of the arm warrants.  You'll certainly get better sound with a more expensive PU, it's just that the arm won't let you hear its full potential.

Have fun and enjoy yourself!

Agrippa