[neobop]

RE: Skating
This is probably the most misunderstood phenomena with pivoting arms. Skating is caused by stylus drag. This is not just a matter of simple friction. There will be friction between the stylus and record with linear trackers, but no drag or need for anti-skate. Why?

Stylus drag is a byproduct of tracking and cart offset angle. That is the difference in angle between the pivot(s) and the angle the cart is set in the headshell. As the arm/cart moves toward the spindle that angle increases. To complicate matters further, groove modulation (velocities) have a great effect, and vertical contact area of the stylus seems to have an effect. That is why skating requirements will vary.

It's interesting that carts that track with increased VTF, > 2g, seem more immune to skating problems. I think this is because the down-force is great enough to minimize the effect.
neo

[Wayner]

Also stylus type will influence anti-skate behavior: conical, elliptical and fine line (shibata).

Wayner

[blakep]

Blakep,
I thought it important to point out that both overhang and angle will change, if mounting distance is even slightly off. That's why I posted, not to contradict what you said, which seemed correct.
neo

No problem and agreed 100% and, as I think you or perhaps another poster has pointed out in a previous thread on alignment, this situation (OP has drilled his own armboard) would not be a good one for any arc protractor unless he is 100% sure of the EXACT pivot to spindle or mounting distance.

[Letitroll98]

RE: Skating
This is probably the most misunderstood phenomena with pivoting arms. Skating is caused by stylus drag. This is not just a matter of simple friction.

Stylus drag is a byproduct of tracking and cart offset angle.

To complicate matters further, groove modulation (velocities) have a great effect, and vertical contact area of the stylus seems to have an effect. That is why skating requirements will vary.

I recommend using a blank disc to set the anti-skate.

It seems these two statements are in direct opposition.  I mention this not to put neo and Wayne in opposing camps, but to gain more knowledge.  I used to think using a blank disc made so much sense.  What could be better?  No nasty grooves interfering messing up the nice, clean geometry.  Later I learned that this is in error and you need the friction of the groove modulations to properly set antiskate bias force.  But using a blank disk causes a too high setting, if the groove modulations are creating friction, how can this be?  I await your responses.

 

[Wayner]

The cause of the anti-skate behavior is more simply caused by the offset angle of the cartridge and stylus, rather then the content of the groove. In practice, you can actually find a spot on the dial where the stylus will simply stay in place, at any point on the disc. As I stated before, there is a relationship between stylus and anti-skating and I can tell you from experience using the blank disc, that even the same cartridge brand will make the anti-skating vary between like cartridges.

In the end, the ears are the final judge and in almost all cases, the position selected using the blank disc method is clearly the winner. It usually solves end of record tracking problems as there is now a relationship that can be visually seen as opposed to just trusting a "dial" on your tonearm. You woouldn't just zero balance your tonearm and dial the weight in with the counter weight? No, you'd use a scale to set the VTF. More accurate. It's the same with this. I've been using the blank disc for years and is one of the most important tools that I have. It also proves if your anti-skating is even working.

Wayner

[SteveRB]

this is amazing information -- i just back in town from a short work trip. I'll be ploughing through this information over the next couple days. And taking the most precise measurements at my disposal.

[neobop]

I never used the blank disc method so I can't comment on it. If it sometimes results in too much anti-skate, as alluded, it would be easy enough to rectify.

I think it's important to understand that there is no 1 perfect setting for all parts of the record and all possible groove modulations. Stylus velocity certainly does effect skating. I don't really know if it has a greater or lesser effect than position/offset angle (location on record), but that doesn't really matter. On another forum I read numerous posts about people using the Hi-Fi test record and setting for the most challenging possibility. These people invariably ended up with too much anti-skate. Problems were alleviated by dialing back. I guess using these tracks wasn't explained well, because it seems counter-intuitive not to adjust that way. So how do you adjust?

I get a kick out of reading subjective methods like the Guru. It's laughable, except for 1 thing. If that music is your normal fare and you get a "perfect" setting at average volume levels, then why not? Well, there are objective methods for checking if you're in the ballpark physically. I say that because electrically there is usually some imbalance between channels. When I set up a cart and have it ready to play, I usually dial in a value around 60 to 75% of VTF and take it from there. On most arms that's where I usually wind up anyway. I use a combination of subjective channel balance and observing the behavior of the stylus in relation to the cart body. If your TT is situated so that you can sight the cart from the front, take a peek when at different parts on the record. You have to make sure you're directly in front of the cart at record level, and not looking at an angle. If the cart is consistently closer to the spindle than the tip, try a little more anti-skate, and visa versa. You'll be amazed at how effective this is.

Ever see a used cart with the cantilever at an angle? This is either because it's handmade and came that way, or incorrect anti-skate was used.
neo

[Wayner]

Perhaps the true message of all of this is just to make people aware that things are not always as they seem, or should be taken for word. The anti-skate behavior should be investigated on any turntable, new or old, observing behavior and stylus position with the eyes, listening to distortions with the ears.

Which ever method (or combination of methods) you decide to use, the first step in success is paying attention. You will reap great rewards with a "Mastered" set-up.

Wayner

[SteveRB]

after taking a closer look at my arm/cartridge mounting, i have changed a few settings based on the user feedback:

- i raised the arm base 1.5mm (the width of a penny)

- confirmed the spindle to arm distance is as close to 240mm as i can measure. The Jelco comes with a plexi ruler that fits over the spindle with a hole for tracing the centre of the mounting hole.

- increased the tracking force to 2.65g

- tightened all screws and allen keys

- realigned the cartridge to DIN Baerwald: overhang 15.5mm with null points at 63.103 and 119.173. This puts the cartridge very square in the headshell.

- set the arm anti-skate to 2.0. There is still an issue with buzzing on HFNTR for track 4. i used Neo's technique of sighting the stylus through it's travel on the record surface. this proved to be very revealing to see the arm actually 'pull' on the stylus.

Results:

the harsh issues with 's' sounds is vastly reduced across the surface of the record. Also, overall dynamics seems expanded a bit, and subtitles in low end seem more apparent. Mids and vocals are crystal clear.

Gotta say thanks to everyone. this was a great learning experience and gives me an expanded base to learn and converse about the effects of fine tune adjustments. This seems like a situation where constant learning and adjusting is part of the fun. Thanks!

[SteveRB]

as a follow up to the OP, anybody have experience with a Denon 103 and the Jolidat JD-9A phono stage?

Seems to be a good component with high praise from users.

[blakep]

after taking a closer look at my arm/cartridge mounting, i have changed a few settings based on the user feedback:

- i raised the arm base 1.5mm (the width of a penny)

- confirmed the spindle to arm distance is as close to 240mm as i can measure. The Jelco comes with a plexi ruler that fits over the spindle with a hole for tracing the centre of the mounting hole.

- increased the tracking force to 2.65g

- tightened all screws and allen keys

- realigned the cartridge to DIN Baerwald: overhang 15.5mm with null points at 63.103 and 119.173. This puts the cartridge very square in the headshell.

- set the arm anti-skate to 2.0. There is still an issue with buzzing on HFNTR for track 4. i used Neo's technique of sighting the stylus through it's travel on the record surface. this proved to be very revealing to see the arm actually 'pull' on the stylus.

Results:

the harsh issues with 's' sounds is vastly reduced across the surface of the record. Also, overall dynamics seems expanded a bit, and subtitles in low end seem more apparent. Mids and vocals are crystal clear.

Gotta say thanks to everyone. this was a great learning experience and gives me an expanded base to learn and converse about the effects of fine tune adjustments. This seems like a situation where constant learning and adjusting is part of the fun. Thanks!

Excellent!! My guess is that you are probably dialed in quite well now. One thing I have always struggled a bit with is anti-skate (and even with a VTF of 2.6 the Denons still need it IMO-tracking with no or little anti-skate definitely results in inferior sound quality) and dropping back the anti-skate in my set-up to 2.0 from 2.6 a few minutes ago did result in a subtle but definite improvement so I hope that is the "dead-on" setting! So thanks to Neobop for that.

With the 103R's I've used, break-in is very, very real. Right now, if new, your 103 is probably just a bit steely and aggressive, a touch thin. At around the 13-15 hour mark (playing time) on the cartridge, it is like a light snaps on and the cartridge really fleshes out and smooths out. It is very dramatic. From there the cartridge will improve to about the 50 hour mark but it is much more subtle.

When broken in, the magic VTF number is 2.6, not 2.55, not 2.65 but 2.6! Above that and the cartridge becomes very slightly "muddy", below that and it can be a bit thin and strident.

My personal feeling is that the Jolida would not be enough of an improvement over your existing transformer/phono stage to justify the expenditure.

IMO, your upgrade path should be: 1) replace the stock plastic body on the Denon with either an ebony Uwe wood body or an aluminum body 2) have the cartridge re-tipped with Soundsmith's $250 line contact stylus and ruby cantilever after you have put 800-1000 hours on it and worn out the stylus.

You will then have a cartridge that can compete with exotics costing literally thousands of dollars. Your cartridge journey will be over.

In spite of its modest cost, the 103/103R's have the makings of truly outstanding cartridges when you rebody and re-tip. As such, they're worthy of and will reveal the attributes of very good phono stages, as in stages costing $1K-$2K+.

Do the body and retip first-you will be shocked by the results/improvements. Then shop for a higher end phono stage and your journey will be over. The synergy you have with the Denon and the Jelco arm is outstanding.

[SteveRB]

thanks for your suggestions -- makes sense to hold out for a real top notch phono stage.

i'm looking at a Midas aluminum body; any direct experience?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1300966913&/Midas-Denon-103-103R-aluminum-

i know the guy who builds them through another forum (lenco heaven). seems like a good design and quality.

[BobM]

thanks for your suggestions -- makes sense to hold out for a real top notch phono stage.

Once you have a halfway decent table and reasonably decent arm, and have controlled the resonances they may have as best you can, and have moved into a MC cartridge, then the phono stage will (IMO) make all the difference in the world. Probably no need to move up on anything else until you have a phono stage that can make the best of any other change. It is the weakest link in most vinyls chains.

A world class phono stage and mediocre table/arm/cartridge will sound worlds better than a top notch table/arm/cartridge and a mediocre phono stage setup. IMO and in my experience, of course. Save up, it's the way to go.

Enjoy

[blakep]

thanks for your suggestions -- makes sense to hold out for a real top notch phono stage.

i'm looking at a Midas aluminum body; any direct experience?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1300966913&/Midas-Denon-103-103R-aluminum-

i know the guy who builds them through another forum (lenco heaven). seems like a good design and quality.

I have no experience with the Midas. I've had a couple of Uwe wood bodies, ebony and clavellin and much prefer the ebony. The Midas is, from what I understand, an exact replica of the Uwe bodies in aluminum. As such I would expect it to be very good and there are certainly a lot of good things that have been said about it.

I have a less expensive aluminum body here that I have not experimented with; the design on it is pretty simple, though, compared to the Uwe and the Midas but I believe it should work well enough.

I think you will be really shocked at what that body will do for you-it is quite a transformation. Just be careful not to lunch the cartridge when you are doing the transplant!

[SteveRB]

i think i'm going with the Midas. I like the idea of the heavy aluminum body. The Lenco guys are really set on it. I'll let you know how it goes when i install it all.

[blakep]

i think i'm going with the Midas. I like the idea of the heavy aluminum body. The Lenco guys are really set on it. I'll let you know how it goes when i install it all.

No problem. Just be sure you are capable of balancing it out. With the aluminum body, the cartridge will weigh about 14-15 grams as opposed to the 8.6 with the standard plastic body.

If your current arm/counterweight will not do it, heavier counterweights are available from Jelco.

[neobop]

It might be worth investigating the optimal total mass of a 103 set-up. I read somewhere that a user thought a range of 25 to 28g for cart weight + arm eff mass was best. With a 21g arm and 14g cart, you'd be at 35g. A little more actually if a heavier counterweight is needed.

I'm not saying this is fact, only that it would be worth looking into. Maybe a lighter wood body without a heavy top plate would work out better, I don't know. It might just be results one person had with the arm(s) he used.
neo

[blakep]

It might be worth investigating the optimal total mass of a 103 set-up. I read somewhere that a user thought a range of 25 to 28g for cart weight + arm eff mass was best. With a 21g arm and 14g cart, you'd be at 35g. A little more actually if a heavier counterweight is needed.

I'm not saying this is fact, only that it would be worth looking into. Maybe a lighter wood body without a heavy top plate would work out better, I don't know. It might just be results one person had with the arm(s) he used.
neo

With my ebony bodied 103R, I'm using a 750D with an aftermarket headshell that is a gram or two heavier than the stock Jelco/Sumiko headshell. On top of that, I'm using a 4.5 gram stainless headshell weight and the heavier aftermarket counterweight for the 750D. So my effective mass on the arm alone is around the 25-26 area and the cartridge in the ebony body is around 12 grams.

Works very well and also sounds much better with the 4.5 gram headshell weight than without.  Most users of rebodied 103's/103R's with experience with arms of varying mass report that things really start to sing when you get into the 25 gram effective mass area (arm only).

This is with a rebodied cartridge. In the stock plastic body, this kind of weight/mass might be too much.

[SteveRB]

UPDATE:

I just set up my new Midas Aluminium body with de-coupling accessory. I had to wait for the extra heavy counterweight to balance the added mass.

The sound is excellent and tracking is spot on. I'm not one for 'flowery' descriptions, but there was one striking effect that was instantly perceptible. The instruments in the centre (mono) space were exceptionally more detailed and clear; i could hear the gentle strumming of the singer acoustic guitar sitting dead centre through a ten piece band all playing at high levels. ...very pleased with the set up!


Below are a couple information links on the upgrades.

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=811.0

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=617.0