[mick wolfe]

A recent "change in  life" has placed me and my SongTowers in a 10X11 listening room. Are any of you Salk owners out there trying to make or have made a small room work? Thanks for your thoughts.

[davidrs]

Mick,

I had the SongTowers in a room very close in size to yours:

13X12

Just about 1 foot from the front wall to the back of the speaker.

Seating position was about 7 feet from the speakers with about 7 feet between the speakers.

Worked very well and I was very happy with the STs performance.

You might find that they pressurize the room to your liking, more than they could in the larger room.

- David.

[Kinger]

I wouldn't think this space would be too small for the ST's especially if you had some room treatments in there.  Pretty sure there is even one Salk owner here that is listening to HT2-TL's in a space not much larger than this.

Will be interesting reading some of the other responses though.

[Carl V]

I've listened in similar rooms.
1. doable & enjoyable.  damp/absorb 1st reflections
2. experiment with crossing speakers axis in front of your head

[mick wolfe]

Two very good suggestions that have me turning the corner.....one from David and one from Carl. Moving the SongTowers back to about 1.5' from the front wall and crossing the axis about 1.5' in front of my listening position. This has yielded a more pleasing result for sure. More tweaking is probably in the works, but this gives me a good baseline. Thanks fellows.

[JLM]

Another option is trying a "skewed" layout where nothing is symetrical except the speaker/listener triangle.  This should help reduce standing waves.

I do nearfield (68 inch equilateral triangle) in a bigger room ala Cardas and it's amazing how it takes the room out of the equation.  I have six GIK 244 panels and after much experimenting they barely make a difference.

[Mudslide]

Another option is trying a "skewed" layout where nothing is symetrical except the speaker/listener triangle.  This should help reduce standing waves.

I do nearfield (68 inch equilateral triangle) in a bigger room ala Cardas and it's amazing how it takes the room out of the equation.  I have six GIK 244 panels and after much experimenting they barely make a difference.

I recently posed a couple of questions to a friend regarding variables affecting audio presentation quality, as well as a few other ideas posted in the Cardas website.  I also referred to a couple of that site's comments regarding general break-in effects such as the need to have "relaxed walls".    

Well now, this might be only a skosh off-topic, but it's just for fun and is not meant to start any fuming, as I'm sure there is some very good information on that site.  But I just thought his reply was worth a giggle or two.  With his permission to post his email reply....
 



'Mechanical stress in speaker cables, speaker cabinets, even the walls of the room, must be relaxed in order for the system to sound its best'.  (Cardas)


"I think there are a few other things that would have a greater effect on the performance, though (for those who break-in their cables and "relax" their audition walls.
 
Fine. But with air being the most critical single component in the production and reproduction of sound, why don't we have standards and procedures to ensure it is of good quality? Also, the auditioners themselves (Not their experience - their presence in the room).
 
1. De-energize the atmosphere -
All spurious vibrations in the air should be eliminated so that the new listening session is not contaminated by subtle echoes that may still be active from a previous performance. Just like a rock dropped in a pond, sound waves will continue to reflect off the walls and items in the room for some time after a listening session is over. The audience should sit motionless in their seats for at least 4-hours to allow the air molecules to settle before beginning another audio track, unless the battle scenes of Riddick was just played, and then they should sit still for 8 days.
 
To be certain the atmosphere is completely still, breathing should be done through tubes vented to the outside of the room.
 
2. Eliminate variations in Atmospheric Pressure, Humidity, Temperature and air composition for all comparison testing -
EPA/DEQ/DLNA/THX Certified AudioAir, with a predetermined and consistent amount of trace gasses, should be made available and used in all audition rooms. This will require a pressurized room, humidifiers and de-humidifiers, precise heating and air-conditioning and an air lock. Air should be replaced with new AudioAir every day (Twice a day if you use Brut). Once the air is optimized for content and condition, repeat step 1.
 
3. Neutralize the Listeners -
Garments warn by the auditioners must maintain a balance between reflective and absorptive material, which we will call the Clothing Coefficient (CC), 0 being optimal. For example, a listener wearing a silk shirt with a CC of +2 should be cancelled out with an equal amount of denim at -2. Listeners must also be positioned in the room according to total personal CC - alternating "pluses" and "minuses". Never place flannel next to Suede, and anyone showing up in a fur coat will require the adjacent listener to wear a wetsuit. Corduroy should never be allowed as it is dispersive material and screws up the calculations.
 
Bald listeners must wear a knit cap.
 
If anyone farts, repeat steps 2 and 1.


 
Hey, maybe we should patent AudioAir"

[mick wolfe]

Yes, I actually had to do a "skewed" set up to satisfy a stager (remember them ) when I was trying to sell a house a few years back. The house didn't sell, but I actually began to enjoy the skewed set-up for listening. The room I'm in now is quite a bit smaller, but I do think there's a chance it could be pulled off....as least to some extent. Thanks for the tip.

[davidrs]

Hey, maybe we should patent AudioAir

And Relax all the Rules.

Here is what I'm doing to my room air:

Steinmusic's H2 Harmonizer, Magic Stones and E-Pads

As reviewed by Stereotimes http://www.stereotimes.com/comm040510.shtml

[Mudslide]

And Relax all the Rules.

Here is what I'm doing to my room air:

Steinmusic's H2 Harmonizer, Magic Stones and E-Pads

As reviewed by Stereotimes http://www.stereotimes.com/comm040510.shtml

And at only 2500 bucks, eh?!  Sounds like a steal to me.   

[davidrs]

And at only 2500 bucks, eh?!  Sounds like a steal to me.   

I've got a long ways to go to save up $2500 and thats likely going to three or four components!

The product makes me think of '2001' - hoping it can also make new worlds for us audiophiles.

On a serious note, the review was interesting. Will have to see if it gets any play from other reviewers.

[Saturn94]

I recently posed a couple of questions to a friend regarding variables affecting audio presentation quality, as well as a few other ideas posted in the Cardas website.  I also referred to a couple of that site's comments regarding general break-in effects such as the need to have "relaxed walls".    

Well now, this might be only a skosh off-topic, but it's just for fun and is not meant to start any fuming, as I'm sure there is some very good information on that site.  But I just thought his reply was worth a giggle or two.  With his permission to post his email reply....
 



'Mechanical stress in speaker cables, speaker cabinets, even the walls of the room, must be relaxed in order for the system to sound its best'.  (Cardas)


"I think there are a few other things that would have a greater effect on the performance, though (for those who break-in their cables and "relax" their audition walls.
 
Fine. But with air being the most critical single component in the production and reproduction of sound, why don't we have standards and procedures to ensure it is of good quality? Also, the auditioners themselves (Not their experience - their presence in the room).
 
1. De-energize the atmosphere -
All spurious vibrations in the air should be eliminated so that the new listening session is not contaminated by subtle echoes that may still be active from a previous performance. Just like a rock dropped in a pond, sound waves will continue to reflect off the walls and items in the room for some time after a listening session is over. The audience should sit motionless in their seats for at least 4-hours to allow the air molecules to settle before beginning another audio track, unless the battle scenes of Riddick was just played, and then they should sit still for 8 days.
 
To be certain the atmosphere is completely still, breathing should be done through tubes vented to the outside of the room.
 
2. Eliminate variations in Atmospheric Pressure, Humidity, Temperature and air composition for all comparison testing -
EPA/DEQ/DLNA/THX Certified AudioAir, with a predetermined and consistent amount of trace gasses, should be made available and used in all audition rooms. This will require a pressurized room, humidifiers and de-humidifiers, precise heating and air-conditioning and an air lock. Air should be replaced with new AudioAir every day (Twice a day if you use Brut). Once the air is optimized for content and condition, repeat step 1.
 
3. Neutralize the Listeners -
Garments warn by the auditioners must maintain a balance between reflective and absorptive material, which we will call the Clothing Coefficient (CC), 0 being optimal. For example, a listener wearing a silk shirt with a CC of +2 should be cancelled out with an equal amount of denim at -2. Listeners must also be positioned in the room according to total personal CC - alternating "pluses" and "minuses". Never place flannel next to Suede, and anyone showing up in a fur coat will require the adjacent listener to wear a wetsuit. Corduroy should never be allowed as it is dispersive material and screws up the calculations.
 
Bald listeners must wear a knit cap.
 
If anyone farts, repeat steps 2 and 1.


 
Hey, maybe we should patent AudioAir"

   Great post!

[Saturn94]

And Relax all the Rules.

Here is what I'm doing to my room air:

Steinmusic's H2 Harmonizer, Magic Stones and E-Pads

As reviewed by Stereotimes http://www.stereotimes.com/comm040510.shtml

I don't mean to offend anyone, but is that for real?

[davidrs]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but is that for real?

Very much so. Did you read the review? If you have not, worth checking out. Interesting, at the very least. I came by it via the latest Cable Company Newsletter.

[Saturn94]

Very much so. Did you read the review? If you have not, worth checking out. Interesting, at the very least. I came by it via the latest Cable Company Newsletter.

I read through part of the review and kept waiting for the punchline.  I kept thinking this must be a joke.  I should have known better.

I think I'll go back and read the whole thing this time.

[davidrs]

I think I'll go back and read the whole thing this time.

If you have some thoughts on it, definitely post them.

It is in the realm of, for example, some of Franck Tchang's products (which are derided by some in the audio world). On the other hand, someone like Srajan Ebaen is open to and comfortable with 'going there' and has discussed the results of Franck's products in his systems.

[Saturn94]

If you have some thoughts on it, definitely post them.

It is in the realm of, for example, some of Franck Tchang's products (which are derided by some in the audio world). On the other hand, someone like Srajan Ebaen is open to and comfortable with 'going there' and has discussed the results of Franck's products in his systems.

I can sum up my thoughts in two words, "placebo effect".  I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

[davidrs]

I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

Mud slides can do that 

Getting back to Mick's topic:

I found I enjoyed the STs firing straight or with a very slight toe in (in other words crossing behind me and the back wall).

Cannot remember if I tried to cross in front of the listening poistion.

Have you tried the two tweeter orientations (or did you go with ribbons)?

[mick wolfe]

The standard Hiquphon dome. Never really found a great deal of difference, but generally have them set up with the tweeters to the inside. The "cross the axis in front of the listening position" approach is something I've done in the past with my Spendor 2/3s. This approach was even suggested in their manual when one didn't want to be confined to a single optimum listening position. Never tried a straight ahead set-up, but this would be easy to try as well. Strangely enough, in the small room, I prefer the grilles in place. I hasten to add that I do use DIY diffraction pads around the tweeters and I'm assuming this somewhat takes the grille's frame out of the equation. Regardless, it renders a more pleasing presention as opposed to sans grilles.

[davidrs]

The standard Hiquphon dome. Never really found a great deal of difference, but generally have them set up with the tweeters to the inside.

Regardless, it renders a more pleasing presention as opposed to sans grilles.

Hiquphon also. I had them setup on the inside as well.

Never did try them with the grills on. Grills remained in their original packaging (next time, perhaps).