[django11]

First let me say that this is not to disparage Platinum bypass caps in any way.  It's just about my experience with them.

The short version is I put Platinum bypass caps in the high pass crossovers of my GR research N3 speakers and now I am thinking I liked the overall sound better before and am thinking about removing them.  The sound is more detailed but less musical.  My toe just isn't tapping so much.

The differences in sound when switching equipment are more or less subtle and it's rather hard to remember the "before" sound when the switch came a week or two before.  I'm left with : "I think I liked it better before".  The process to install and remove the caps is rather a pita so I thought this thread might help in the thought process and would also help give me a "cooling down period".

Here I should probably list my equipment:  a diy tri-path sure amp and a diy tube pre amp, both made by billnchristy.  A 707 super dac and a Panasonic 5 cd/dvd changer.  Not the highest end stuff but still pretty darn good.  In the pre-amp, which uses inexpensive 6j6 tubes, I usually prefer some Hitachi (!)tubes that Bill sent me.  I prefer these to the Russian and Mullard tubes.

Even though I think my equipment is decent perhaps it is the source of my problem?  When I upgraded the crossovers in some x-ls encore speakers the result was similar in that I experienced more detail but less musicality.  The idea of changing all my equipment to complement the new bypass caps does not thrill me and I suspect the waf of that will be pretty low  .

The N3s  without the platinum caps sounded really great.  Very smooth and I could play them loud without the highs every being grating or painfull.  So with all I heard about the bypass caps I figured the speakers could only get better.  And some aspects of the sound with the new caps are undeniably amazing.  At first I was really thrilled with the new caps.  There is extra depth to the highs and more detail. But now I have noticed that on some cd's the music, while detailed,  is much less engaging.  In particular, on a jazz guitar cd by Frank Vignola, the sound is kind of metallic now, un-musical.  I switched the tubes in my pre-amp to the Mullards from the Hitachi which brought back the musicality on this cd but sucked it out on others.  Also, I've noticed to that I cringe on some high notes.   This is getting too complicated .



So any thoughts on this?  Maybe I just have sensitive ears?  I sold my Mission floor standers not long ago because they were bright...  BTW I am listening to some jazz with vibraphones coming through my cable providers digital feed and the sound is incredible.  The vibraphone is clear as a bell...

[Wind Chaser]

Just let it sit for now, perhaps they need to break in or settle?  Spend some more time listening to them, and then pull them out in a month or so.  By then you should have a pretty good grasp on what the differences are and which you prefer.  Yeah, it's work... but what ya gonna do?  At least then you'll know 100% for sure.

[Guy 13]

Hi django11 and all Audio Circle members.
How do you like your N3?
I have ordered from Danny a N3 kit which I will get sometime next month and I would like to know what to expect from the N3, what you think about them?
Your personal opinion on the mids and highs.
I am looking for a non agressive sound, sweet highs, non fatiguing highs, non agressive highs, fine details are not really a priority to me.
I will match the N3 with the subwoofer section of my V2.
Guy 13

[usp1]

My only experience with platinum bypass caps is similar. I recently bypassed the caps in my Dodd buffer and while I think there is more detail the sound seems less enjoyable somehow. I am going to keep the caps in for a while so they break in (or I get used to the sound). It may be that my ears are sensitive to HF sounds and a slightly less detailed sound is more to my liking.

[nodiak]

I'm glad you posted, good to hear comments on the platinum character. Not everyone likes the same characteristics in their system. Or would agree what the best item is on a menu, or favorite color, etc. Seems we're all trying to get our systems to evoke a certain type of emotion in us - some want it to be more relaxing, others exciting, and everything in between. Figuring out what that is for me helps me better guess which tweak of the month might work, or not.

[face]

You're not the only one that feels this way.

If you're looking for an improvement, don't bypass, just use a better cap. 

[django11]

Hi django11 and all Audio Circle members.
How do you like your N3?
I have ordered from Danny a N3 kit which I will get sometime next month and I would like to know what to expect from the N3, what you think about them?
Your personal opinion on the mids and highs.
I am looking for a non agressive sound, sweet highs, non fatiguing highs, non agressive highs, fine details are not really a priority to me.
I will match the N3 with the subwoofer section of my V2.
Guy 13

Hey thirteen,

I made the sealed N3 so they need a sub-woofer.  With the sonic caps they are fantastic: smooth and quite detailed.  With the bypass "upgrade" the detail is moved up a bit but for me they introduced an element of fatigue and irritation.  As I mentioned, and I am not sure why this is, but when  listening to jazz on my cable feed vibraphones in particular stand out.  The sound is jaw dropping.  That is the word I first used to describe my experience of listening to the upgraded caps.  The detail really is astounding.  But when listening to CDs I find myself continually skipping to the next song because I am not enjoying the music...

[emac]

I haven't seen how long you've been using the Platinums.  Like a lot of caps that I've tried, they need time to burn in.  However, the Platinums can take upwards of 100 hrs to settle in fully.  Danny isn't joking when he recommends waiting until then.  Earlier on, you do get the detail, but it can be soulless.  However, you are right that the detail that you get with the Platinums could be distracting for some, especially if you're not used to hearing music this way.  It is a very different type of presentation.  Works well for me, but perhaps not for everyone.

Also, that 707 DAC does not have much soul to it.  I'd gotten one and modded it for someone, so I'm pretty well familiar with its sound.  Also used it in a DAC shootout that Laserman had a few years back, and it was clearly rated the worst out of all of the DACs we'd heard.  If you're looking for a cheap alternative, I'd recommend the Maverick TubeMagic D1, which isn't all that expensive.  I have one that I use in my computer set up, and with a different opamp and tube, it sounds sounds terrific. 

[django11]

I should have mentioned that I have around 100 hours on them.  I don't disagree about the DAC but do wonder why it isn't soulless with the regular Sonic caps?  Maybe the platinums reveal  it's limitations?

[Zerogravity]

This is good to know and helps out a lot. I was considering it for the N3 T.L. Design as im not sure if it would help with the extra dynamics of the low end?It's also stretching my budget. One thing is Tube amps might play a role compared to digital or Solid State amps, however as detailed as it is the tubes should warm it up a bit or is it conflicting? Ah heck this is confounding, I really don't know what the he'll I'm talking about. However it is comforting that some like the stock cap and consider it close in performance! Are the Platinums offered with the Sonicaps, I thought it was only offered with the upgraded caps? Never mind, I had it backwards the Erse are stock and Sonicap Gen 2 are the upgrades.

[emac]

I should have mentioned that I have around 100 hours on them.  I don't disagree about the DAC but do wonder why it isn't soulless with the regular Sonic caps?  Maybe the platinums reveal  it's limitations?

My guess is that the Platinums do reveal the limitations.  Let's put it this way, with the regular Sonicaps, everything could have been roughly at the same level in your system: musicality, detail, soundstage, speed, etc.  So, there was a good balance.  However, w/ the Platinums, to me at least, they really push up the detail as well as speed of the system.  Thus, the DAC becomes a rate limiter, though it wasn't before. 

It comes down to the idea of system synergy.  With the Platinums, you've changed the sound of the N3's and they no longer synergize well w/ the rest of your system.  It isn't necessarily the fault of the Platinums or of the electronics.  They just don't work well together. 

[Bill Baker]

You need to give them more time for the Platinums to burn as they need about 400 hours to really show their true potential. Anything prior to this would be a premature evaluation. Give them some time and go from there.

[Danny Richie]

Some things to keep in mind...

First, the Sonicap Platinum's, like any Teflon based cap, needs a lot of time to settle in. You are really looking at about 500 to 1000 hours for them to completely settle. During this time the sound can drift a little in various ways. Some have even notice a darkening character in the 100 to 200 hour range. And they make take a more relaxed sound as they near 300 to 500 hours.

Secondly, keep in mind that what a cap really does is never an in addition to effect. It never adds something that isn't there. What it does is subtractive. It takes something away or adds coloration. It can soften, clip transients. It can smear. It can haze over. It can cause many effects. But it will never add detail that isn't there. It can only let it pass if it is really there to begin with.

What you may be experiencing it liken unto cleaning your windows. You may or may not like the view afterwards.

My guess is that you are now hearing more of the character of the front end or even the cabling that you are using.

I'd let the caps finish settling, and I'd try to audition some other front end components to see where the real blame might be.

[nodiak]

400 hours is 5 hours a day for 80 days. 1000 hours is 5 hours x 200 days.
What is going on in a capacitor over that long period of time? Are the materials wearing down to set better with each other as a new/rebuilt car engines pistons and cylinders can, but on a smaller level? If so then there is some lost wear on the materials life span. Etc, etc,...
I've had some speaker drivers that changed over a long period of time, but when I didn't use them for months the break in started all over tho it seemed to take less time.
I definitely notice differences in warm up of gear.

This is being asked on a How Stuff Works level. A reality check on our understanding at the physical/material level.

[sts9fan]

Or he could just not like them...

[Tyson]

He might not like them, is right!  Or, they could need more burn in.  I think 500 hours is a bit long, and IMO most of the burn in is gonna happen in the first 200 hours.  So, I'd say leave them in a bit longer, and then take them out if it throws the system out of whack. 

The other alternative is to leave them in and try changing other components in the system - I'd get something like a Scott Nixon TubeDAC (the latest one with the much better 12bh7 output tube and direct I2S signal processing) or a Wavelength Audio DAC, or some other good tubed dac.  My take is that if your source is not top-notch, then nothing in the rest of the system will make it better.  Blue Circle also makes a very musical DAC, and it's SS if you don't want to mess with tubes in a DAC.

[django11]

Why does this never end? 

[satfrat]

Why does this never end? 

Cuz you ain't dead yet. 

[Wind Chaser]

I stand by my original post.  Just give it some time.  And Robin is right.  It's only all said and done when we're all said and done.

[Tyson]

Of course, my advice is that if you really enjoy the sound of your system, then to hell with upgrades, just kick back, relax, and blast the tunes.