[TONEPUB]

One big issue here, especially with vinyl playback, is the recording quality.  I've noticed when listening to average pressings and comparing relatively expensive components, the diff is nowhere near as great as it is when using fantastic pressings.  Most of what you are paying for is the ability to discern nuance (no matter what kind of music you enjoy) and if you are pretty much buying average pressings at your local record store for $2-6 each, $5k on an analog front end is probably the point of diminishing returns.

It also depends on how much time you actually have to listen...

If you don't have a lot of time, it may not make as much sense to make the investment.

[Scott F.]

One big issue here, especially with vinyl playback, is the recording quality.  I've noticed when listening to average pressings and comparing relatively expensive components, the diff is nowhere near as great as it is when using fantastic pressings.  Most of what you are paying for is the ability to discern nuance (no matter what kind of music you enjoy) and if you are pretty much buying average pressings at your local record store for $2-6 each, $5k on an analog front end is probably the point of diminishing returns.

It also depends on how much time you actually have to listen...

If you don't have a lot of time, it may not make as much sense to make the investment.

+1 

Jeff, you hit the nail on the head.

[jrtrent]

to have a noticeable impact...

The theme of your response revolves around what's noticeable, but for me the question of diminishing returns isn't one of what's noticeable, but of at what level can I enjoy my music collection.  Art Dudley once wrote that an "upgrade" is something that makes you listen to your records more.  I can assemble a system for around $6000 that would keep me listening 'round the clock if work and other life obligations didn't interfere, so any expenditure above that point I would consider in the realm of diminishing returns.  The price point could, of course, be quite different for different ears.

[davidrs]

an "upgrade" is something that makes you listen to your records more. 

Jrtrent -- a wonderful measure -- well put!

[dlaloum]

A relevant alternate definition....

I agree you could put together something nice used for not too much- a set of speakers that don't advertise their boxiness (stats prefered) - $ 1500 should be ample

A nice classic amp or perhaps one of the new generation "Class D" units - you can do something very good for around $500

Use a combo headphone amp/preamp for volume control - no more than $500

Front end - a PC or Laptop with either a decent soundcard or an external DAC

Just to be safe budget an external DAC.... $300

Vinyl Junkies bits...

Thrift store TT - $50
Decent Cartridge (or stylus upgrade) - $100
Phono Stage - $250

Speakers    $1500
Power amp $ 500
Pre amp     $ 500
DAC          $ 300
TT            $  50
Cartridge    $ 100
Phono Stage$250

TOTAL $3200

With careful shopping this would achieve the goal of an enjoyable system one could listen to for hours on end.... (I have helped friends in the past do just that!)

And beyond that, based on that criteria... everything is diminishing returns.

Once you have a fiddle.... upgrading to a Stradivarius definitely shows diminishing returns....

But it also becomes a question of what you value, and how much you value it.

bye for now

David

[andyr]

Once you have a fiddle.... upgrading to a Stradivarius definitely shows diminishing returns....

David

A bad analogy, I suggest as it depends whether you are looking at this from the point of view of the fiddler ... or the listener. 

As I listener, I suspect I could hear the tonal difference between a cheap mass-produced "student violin" being played and a Strad being played.  The Strad's tone would sound richer - and definitely not by a diminishingly small amount - but I probably couldn't tell the difference between that an an Amati. 

And for the player, I could imagine playing a Strad rather than their "student violin" would be a richer and much more pleasurable experience. 

But it also becomes a question of what you value, and how much you value it.

Correct.  The sheer fact they are playing a million $ instrument I'm sure brings out the best in the player. 

Regards,

Andy

[andyr]

The theme of your response revolves around what's noticeable, but for me the question of diminishing returns isn't one of what's noticeable, but of at what level can I enjoy my music collection.  Art Dudley once wrote that an "upgrade" is something that makes you listen to your records more.  I can assemble a system for around $6000 that would keep me listening 'round the clock if work and other life obligations didn't interfere, so any expenditure above that point I would consider in the realm of diminishing returns.  The price point could, of course, be quite different for different ears.

I agree absolutely with Art Dudley's definition.    But I've had a system for at least the last 15 years that I could listen to all day long (if I had the time) ... and that hasn't stopped me spending money from time to time, to make my listening experience even more pleasurable.    And I'm dead-set certain there are more improvements to make that won't require me to live on bread and water for the rest of my days. 

Regards,

Andy

[dlaloum]

I prefer modifications that require my living on chicken and champagne.... or Vodka and Caviar...

[andyr]

I prefer modifications that require my living on chicken and champagne.... or Vodka and Caviar...

Vodka & real caviar (not that salmon roe which is often sold as "caviar") - certainly! 

Chicken & champagne - nah, I'm not a fan of chicken ... even my daughter's improvement of the famous Rowlands' chicken sandwich!    

But tuna/atlantic salmon sashimi & Moet - well, now you're talkin!! 

Regards,

Andy

[dlaloum]

Actually I prefer good Salmon roe to Sturgeon Roe.... with a dash of sour cream, and chilled Vodka or Akvavit..... now we are talking INCREASING returns....

[andyr]

Actually I prefer good Salmon roe to Sturgeon Roe.... with a dash of sour cream, and chilled Vodka or Akvavit..... now we are talking INCREASING returns....

Nah, sorry (each to their own!  )  I don't have the tasting experience to rate Beluga against Ossetra or Sevruga caviars but IMO they are all more "gourmet tasty" than salmon roe.

Regards,

Andy

[jrtrent]

. . . I've had a system for at least the last 15 years that I could listen to all day long (if I had the time) ... that hasn't stopped me spending money from time to time, to make my listening experience even more pleasurable.

Nothing wrong with that!  I thought the OP's question was interesting--when does the law of diminishing returns set in?--and settled on the response given above, but there's a big difference even in that definition between a diminishing return and no return.  If it increases your pleasure in listening to music, it's worthwhile.

I finally located the original article I referenced before; it was a review of "mid-priced" preamps (about $800 in 1987) that Art Dudley wrote for HiFi Heretic.  One thing that bothered him at the time was an element of the hobby that manifested itself as a "jockishly obsessive exercise" of trading gear season after season, of worrying about how next year's state of the art will make their system sound sick, of worrying about what others might think of their choices, of continually dumping money into the quest for some kind of hifi Holy Grail, of seeing fine products (like those he was then reviewing) as mere steps along the way or of providing "the financially deprived a 'taste' of what the Big Boys have." 

In contrast to this, Dudley emphasized that hifi is "a means of delivering musical enjoyment"; that more musical enjoyment can be seen as "they spend more time playing records"; that "investing in a mid-priced system. . . --and stopping there--can be a perfectly satisfactory way of bringing music into your home"; that you can be a true hifi enthusiast even if you just want to keep and enjoy a system that gives you an acceptable degree of fidelity, and aren't always looking to "upgrade."

[dlaloum]

Agree 100%

I have a friend who is a professional violinist.... spends a LOT of time hearing and playing live music - also spends a lot of time at home listening to music on a fairly basic setup ... it does the job.

He came over and we listened to some of his favourites on my system - he was a bit gobsmacked at the detail that could be discerned.... but it in no way reduced his enjoyment of his own system. Which continues to get daily use.

It is also interesting that different musicians will look for differing things from their systems... timbre, rhythm... etc... and as long as the system reproduces those aspects of the performance that they connect with most - it achieves its goal.

A percussionist will require a system that is spot on the beat - anything slow, delayed, wobbly is going to be inadequate... but once that is present - he won't necessarily be that interested in getting the timbre spot on... not what he listens for.

bye for now
David

[neobop]

Many musicians (certainly not all) are extremely bad at choosing components. Many also have substandard systems - mismatches in their price range. I'm not just talking about struggling musicians who have what they can find, but some more prominent ones also.

This baffled me at first. Why would a member of the Philadelphia Orchestra rely on me to make choices for him? Constantly, after demos he would defer and ask what I thought. I would go on about strong points, compatibility etc and he bought what I recommended. Why? Was it because everything fell so far short of the real thing that it didn't matter? He was buying for himself, or so he said, so I'd think it would matter. It was confusing. He wasn't the only musician who didn't seem to "hear". 

I finally figured out some of what was behind this phenom. What he didn't hear he filled in, in his head. He was so familiar with the music he heard what should be there, not what was there. Maybe another aspect - he probably trained himself to listen for certain clues that related to his own performing. It might have been impossible for him not to. Maybe he would hear mostly the phrasing and intonation of the violin section, where he would come in, and aspects for his performance.

Maybe I should have chosen demo material he wasn't so familiar with,  Scottish Dances or something. Since that time, I put no more credence to a musicians recommendation than any other. After all, if you're sitting in the middle of an orchestra or band, you really can't hear what it sounds like in the audience anyway.
neo

[davidrs]

Many musicians (certainly not all) are extremely bad at choosing components. Many also have substandard systems - mismatches in their price range.

Since that time, I put no more credence to a musicians recommendation than any other. After all, if you're sitting in the middle of an orchestra or band, you really can't hear what it sounds like in the audience anyway.
neo

Agree with Neo (NeoBop), though as he also points out, it doesn't apply across the board.

I do find musicians who go out and listen to music frequently, to be much better at evaluating systems.

Unfortunately, most of my musician friends are too busy performing and teaching and trying to make ends meet to have the time for our hobby.

BTW Add DJs, even the better ones, to the list.

[TheChairGuy]

I finally figured out some of what was behind this phenom. What he didn't hear he filled in, in his head. He was so familiar with the music he heard what should be there, not what was there. Maybe another aspect - he probably trained himself to listen for certain clues that related to his own performing. It might have been impossible for him not to. Maybe he would hear mostly the phrasing and intonation of the violin section, where he would come in, and aspects for his performance.

BINGO.

My niece is married to a stand up bassist well known in the Mid-Atlantic....he's played with Joe Henderson, Charlie Byrd, Tommy Flanagan, Kieko Matsui, Cab Calloway, Terence Blanchard, Mose Allison, Phil Woods, Teddy Wilson and Chet Baker...probably others. He's played at Jazz Fests in San Remo, Italy, Russia, Montreal and elsewhere I know.

Definitely a guy who's known for his playing in the jazz world.

His home system consists of an all-in-one compact system made by Lloyds (no phono even)...probably something he bought for $150 from KMart a decade+ ago.  He says it sounds great and in between swirls of cognac, laughs at me for spending so much time and $ obsessing over stereo components.

Despite the nice resume, like most musicians, he ain't at all rich...so the all-in-one fits his budget, too.

I no longer live there and I wasn't able to lure him to my listening den when I did live in Washington DC....but, I'm pretty sure that he would've been gobsmacked by the differences.  But, until he hears it, he just happily fills in the many blanks and listens to his cheapie system 

For him, $150 is where diminishing returns must kick in 

Oh well.  John

[BaMorin]

depends upon (to me) how much returns were gained from the other equipment. Are you getting your $1,000.00 from your amplifier by plugging a $29.95 preamp into it? Or does that amplifier now sound like a loud thirty bucks? If my 3.6Rs are now sounding better
(afterall is only the speakers you really hear) by plugging in a $600.00 cart in place of a $300.00 cart....am I not gaining on my investment in my speakers?

[Wayner]

Musicians spend their money on their instruments. I had a couple that lived next to me. She was a concert violist, he played in a variety rock and roll band. Her violin case cost $3000. He had vintage Fender Stratocasters, Martin D28s' and stuff like that. His stereo was at best, a high side of low end.

To sum it up, thousands of dollars in instruments, shit for music systems, funny tho, he played (and had) lots of LPs.

Wayner

[doug s.]

From my experience, I would say $1000 for pickup, $1000 for arm, $1500 for table and $1500 for phono stage going by the list price.  Obviously, it would be about half of that if you go used.  YMMV greatly.  This is based on my LOMC journey.  So 5K will get you a set up that will get you 95% of the way to sonic Nirvana.  From there, another 5K will get you .5% closer.   

i'm w/rim on this...  but, you can save on the table, for sure, by going wintage, w/an empire, or a modded lenco, for example...

doug s.

[95Dyna]

BINGO.


For him, $150 is where diminishing returns must kick in 

Oh well.  John

Yikes!  I spent twice that much on my VPI dust cover.  Better make an appointment with my psychiatrist .