[giantsteps]

http://www.savantaudio.com/referett.html


Breaking it down to dollars and sense in your personal experience with audio components when does the law of diminishing returns set in? With access to unlimited funds does it ever?



Frank

[TheChairGuy]

There's a point of diminishing returns...but it's vastly different for all involved for so many reasons.

[andyr]

Absolutely!     Silly question, really ... what one person regards as a rare purchase - say $5K - is just another week's discretionary money to a guy earning a a couple of million $ a year.   

Regards,

Andy

[woodsyi]

From my experience, I would say $1000 for pickup, $1000 for arm, $1500 for table and $1500 for phono stage going by the list price.  Obviously, it would be about half of that if you go used.  YMMV greatly.  This is based on my LOMC journey.  So 5K will get you a set up that will get you 95% of the way to sonic Nirvana.  From there, another 5K will get you .5% closer.   

[BobM]

I agree with you Woodsiy. That's about the number to get really great, "I probably don't have to spend any more money until I snap a cantilever", vinyl sound. You can certainly get good sound for less by buying a less expensive table and arm with a bit more % going into the phono stage and cartridge, but you won't hear their full potential that way and you'll end up upgrading at some point.

[95Dyna]

From my experience, I would say $1000 for pickup, $1000 for arm, $1500 for table and $1500 for phono stage going by the list price.  Obviously, it would be about half of that if you go used.  YMMV greatly.  This is based on my LOMC journey.  So 5K will get you a set up that will get you 95% of the way to sonic Nirvana.  From there, another 5K will get you .5% closer.   

Gee woodsyi, that sounds almost exactly what my VPI Classic w/10.i SE and Benz Wood SL cost me.  Thanks for validating my decision

[DaveyW]

My TT/Arm/Cart combo is also in the same range as per Woodsyi's post and holds itself up very nicely against loftier competition that I've heard.
I'm certainly not currently considering any further investment in this area.

Further to the law of diminishing returns don't you find it can also start going the other way?

There are some discs that I really can't cope with listening to any longer - the latest incarnation of the front end exposing the good, bad and down right ugly 

Cheers
Dave

[jrtrent]

Linn used to talk about meeting your level of musical expectation, and that it can be different for each person (as Chairguy pointed out).  I don't need loud volume, extreme frequency extension, expansive soundstaging, and am not overly concerned with issues like transparency, air, harmonics, and timbre.  What I've found I do need is pace, rhythm, dynamics, and pitch integrity (tunefulness). 

For me, turntable/arm packages starting around $3000 can be very satisfying.  I happen to use an LP12 with Ittok LVIII/2 arm and Basik power supply.  I bought it new in 1993 and don't remember the price or know what a current replacement might cost, but I've heard comparable performance with the Rega P7 and Well Tempered Record Player (players like the P5 and VPI Scout don't quite measure up).  I've heard the improvements available with the Keel and Lingo, but my more modest deck lets me thoroughly enjoy my records--I don't need to spend more to be satisfied.

In cartridges, I've found that even very cheap models work well when mounted on a decent quality 'table and arm.  I currently have a $32 Audio Technica CN5625AL cartridge on my Ittok, and it sounds great to me.

Good amplification that I've had a chance to hear starts around $2000.  The little Naim Nait 5i sounds good, though it needs an outboard phono stage (such as the Rega Fono MM).  I'm using Audio by Van Alstine's lowest-cost solid state preamp and power amp (currently $2250 for both, including very good built-in phono stage).

Like cartridges, I've found even very inexpensive speakers to work well when driven by a decent amplifier.  I've always been fond of 8 inch, two-way designs, and I'm currently using Bose 301 series V speakers.  I've auditioned speakers in my home costing up to 6 times the price of the Bose, but they didn't increase my musical satisfaction.

[dlaloum]

Strictly speaking diminishing returns begin with the very 1st dollar...

My theory is that each audible step up in quality (ie a sufficient increase in quality for you to notice that it differs and that it is improved albeit marginally) doubles the price.

So the price/performance curve is exponential.

The real question is where does your Value For Money level sit?

And what aspects of performance do you value the most highly? (it is possible to get gear that does everything well.... but no compromise performance requires no compromise pocket depth)

Value is of course completely relative - and a question of your tastes and preferences.... including user interface, appearance, design, ease of use in addition to the sonic aspects.

You can increase Value for money by buying used - but watch out for flavour of the month models and brands - the price can be inflated by a craze.... (eg Technics Sl1200) - which will knock their value for money ratio about badly.

bye for now

David

[Elizabeth]

One of my friends has stuff we found at second hand stores.
Marantz 2270 for $25, NAD CD for $7, Dual TT for $5, (cart was $30 for used Ortofon MC20) .. speakers JBL 1970 somethings, $40 the pair
This stuff plays music decently'
So for UNDER a hundred dollars, you got music.
My first real stereo (age 15) was about $800.
Me second real stereo was about $6,000.
My current stereo is about $35,000. (not including video)
So.. am i any better off now than my friend with the $100 setup?
They BOTH play music.
She doesn't think there is really ANY difference (and thus her opinion that I am like TOTALLY insane)
I can appreciate the difference, and so justify my expenditure because I want to.
I would say the graph for diminishing returns is like a curve going rapidly to infinity. The money being infinite!! the quality of sound having a solid limit. As we get a little closer to 'real' the price goes up astronomically/exponentially.
I can say winning a few hundred million in a lotto would get me to move any further up the graph. Otherwise i am at my price point and am going no further. I may swap stuff, but it is going to be lateral... I do not have the income to move up further.

[LM]

She doesn't think there is really ANY difference (and thus her opinion that I am like TOTALLY insane)
I can appreciate the difference, and so justify my expenditure because I want to.

I think this goes to the heart of the question and why no specific dollar value will ever work for everybody.  I've got to the point now where, whilst I know that it could still be improved, I always enjoy turning on my system with great anticipation and have little desire to experiment.  Sure, I've been somewhat driven in the past and taken some detours and wrong tracks but I'm now satisfied that any big effort (not just dollars) is unlikely to justify further gains.  Doesn't mean I won't fiddle or consider change, just that it doesn't stem from any conscious or subconscious dissatisfaction with my system as it is.  Incidentally, the greatest gains I have had of late have been with low or no cost options such as refining room set up and speaker positioning, not dollars at all.

[TONEPUB]

From my experience, I would say $1000 for pickup, $1000 for arm, $1500 for table and $1500 for phono stage going by the list price.  Obviously, it would be about half of that if you go used.  YMMV greatly.  This is based on my LOMC journey.  So 5K will get you a set up that will get you 95% of the way to sonic Nirvana.  From there, another 5K will get you .5% closer.   

Sorry, I'd strongly disagree with that.

I've got an EAR 834P, which is one of my favorite reasonably priced phono stages at $1500.   Doesnt even come close to my ARC REF Phono 2.   I'd say 20, maybe 30%, but that's a reach.

Five grand is a good sweet spot though, but there is a LOT more analog performance to be had if you have the budget.  I'd put the next big jumps at about 15k, then 30, 50, and 100k.

Of course there are some exceptions, and of course a few good deals on used gear can bring this number down...

[AudioSoul]

  The limiting factor for me is the room I listen to music in. To improve my setup I would have to buy a new house...

[dlaloum]

The ultimate upgrade... a room proportioned using the Golden proportions (see the cardas website) with no parallel walls, treated right.... built of the right materials....

I stayed once at a B&B made of straw bale - one of the most peaceful houses I have ever been in -it was QUIET... and I mean REALLY QUIET .... almost anechoic...

I could see a listening room built of straw bale in that manner being quite incredible

Even a very basic simple (cheap) setup will sound fantastic!

So where does that rank in terms of VfM?

[TONEPUB]

  The limiting factor for me is the room I listen to music in. To improve my setup I would have to buy a new house...

That's a great observation.  Exactly where I'm at...

[woodsyi]

Sorry, I'd strongly disagree with that.

I've got an EAR 834P, which is one of my favorite reasonably priced phono stages at $1500.   Doesnt even come close to my ARC REF Phono 2.   I'd say 20, maybe 30%, but that's a reach.

Five grand is a good sweet spot though, but there is a LOT more analog performance to be had if you have the budget.  I'd put the next big jumps at about 15k, then 30, 50, and 100k.

Of course there are some exceptions, and of course a few good deals on used gear can bring this number down...

I don't know Jeff.  95% may be too high but 30% seems way too low.  It's hard to be objective when you are already on the slippery slope you know.  I can definitely hear improvement from a 30K vantage looking at 5K position, but how much is that in terms of % from nothing?  The thing is you learn to hear minute difference as you gain more experience.  It may be 1% in an overall scheme of things but you can't do without it you know it's there.  It's hard to quantify improvement as you climb that steep slope.  I think it become subjective so to speak.

[dlaloum]

Also it's easier to identify differences between a $100 setup and a $30k setup, than between a $10k setup and a $20k setup.

Hence my "measure" of an individual quality step being the smallest step that has a (barely) noticeable improvement. - The cost of that step is exponentially greater as you work your way up the quality ladder.

Does the $100 CD player or Turntable sound better than the $200 version - all else being equal the answer is usually - yes but it is barely noticeable.

Does the $1600 CDP or TT sound better than the $100 version - most people will unequivocally say yes.... but that is 4 steps up.

you can't really use % for this - there simply is no way of measuring it in % terms - it isn't a linear scale for starters, and does anyone here know where the 100% point is - has perfect audio reproduction been achieved? (answer is.... obviously not)

So we don't know the scale to use (as we don't know the end point) and we don't have a linear measure for it, even if we chose an arbitrary end point.... fegedaboudit.

I will stick to the "audio notches" measure.... a purely subjective and psychoacoustic measure related to perception.... and with "only" empirical experiential data linking it to real retail prices.

So the steps in financial terms look very digital/binary as they double at each step:

100, 200, 400, 800, 1.6k, 3.2k, 6.4k, 12.8k, 25.6k, 51.2k, 102.4k

If your upgradeable item is at the $100 level - going up 4 levels ($1.6k) will provide great satisfaction - it is noticeable, to you to your partner, to your friends....

If on the other hand the item is at the 3.2k level and you upgrade to 6.4k - you may notice the difference (as you are "tuned in" to your system) but friends, partner, etc.. are unlikely to.
"Sheesh this person blows 3 grand for nothing".... no street cred in it at all. (course if the gear looks sexy, is a bit of a sculpture.... there are other benefits...)
From 3.2k you would probably need to go up to 25.6k category to have a noticeable impact... OUCH!! Diminishing returns indeed!

I also remember when demoing top end gear, I could demo the bottom end and work my way step by step from bottom to top with the customer barely noticing the differences along the way, and ending up saying - so what is the big deal, why would I even think about paying $X for that.

But let him/her listen for a while to the top end item - let the ear get used to it - then take them back to the bottom end - and they REALLY notice it. Psychoacoustics plays heavily in here!

Ps. there are 11 steps in my scale above, so if you must use %, and we arbitrarily set $100k as the 100% point, then each step down would be 9%... still feels like too big a % for a single step change....

bye for now

David

[davidrs]

David (dlaloum),

Interesting posts.

If we take it away from a system level to an individual component level: How would you fit a component, at the same price point, with a 'differential' of one or two degrees/levels (as you define it) between them into your model/discussion?

Your CD example was between CDs at different dollar levels. In other words, what if the differential was 2X (2 'degrees' between two different CDPs) at the same dollar level?

Thanks,

David.

[dlaloum]

When I was demoing CD players - 2 steps up was the usual upgrade people would start considering based on Audible improvement - 1 step was too small to be worthwhile (in pure audio terms - but WAF, ease of use, and other factors can change things too).

3/4 steps is what most people really wanted for their upgrades - but budgets tend to kick in...

I LOVE the used market, because I can usually get a 4 step upgrade for myself, at a 1 or 2 step price....

The rule applies at the individual component level from my experience, and even down to stylus pricing.... (for those cartridges where stylus upgrades work... eg: Shures, AT's, Ortofon, etc...)

bye for now

David

[neobop]

One of my friends has stuff we found at second hand stores.
Marantz 2270 for $25, NAD CD for $7, Dual TT for $5, (cart was $30 for used Ortofon MC20) .. speakers JBL 1970 somethings, $40 the pair
This stuff plays music decently'
So for UNDER a hundred dollars, you got music.
My first real stereo (age 15) was about $800.
Me second real stereo was about $6,000.
My current stereo is about $35,000. (not including video)
So.. am i any better off now than my friend with the $100 setup?
They BOTH play music.
She doesn't think there is really ANY difference (and thus her opinion that I am like TOTALLY insane)
I can appreciate the difference, and so justify my expenditure because I want to.
I would say the graph for diminishing returns is like a curve going rapidly to infinity. The money being infinite!! the quality of sound having a solid limit. As we get a little closer to 'real' the price goes up astronomically/exponentially.
I can say winning a few hundred million in a lotto would get me to move any further up the graph. Otherwise i am at my price point and am going no further. I may swap stuff, but it is going to be lateral... I do not have the income to move up further.

Makes perfect sense to me. It's nice to reach a point where you can listen to music without the upgrade obsession always interfering. It is an interference. It can get in the way of enjoying the music. The focus changes from the music itself, to how it's reproduced. There's a difference between focusing on the system or focusing on the music. Sure, you can do both at the same time, but you know how that goes. Evaluation requires listening to those familiar clues and how they're reproduced. You're no longer discovering things in the music, you're evaluating things in its reproduction. If those things revealed in the reproduction are significantly better than before, maybe it's worthwhile. But don't kid yourself, you're listening to your stereo. Music just happens to be the end result.

I think John has it right. "There's a point of diminishing returns...but it's vastly different for all involved for so many reasons."

You can look at it from a dealer's point of view, returns vs amount of money spent. Or you can look at if from your personal musical enjoyment perspective. There's always something better. How much better? What will it do for my music? Not system.
neo