[jtwrace]

No, that's not what I want, I want the price not to go up. And that's what the market want also. We don't just give the Chinese jobs because we are nice guys, we do it because the consumers want the price to be low.

Oh, I didn't know that.   

[AVnerdguy]

I bought from Frank because he makes a great product AND it's US made/assembled. Same with my Magnaplaners. I'll spend a few more bucks to keep it here.

Don't get me wrong, it's a global economy and I get it (I'm in manufacturing also). I own items made outside the US also. But, given a choice I prefer to keep it here.

Actually, his price increase is not bad. I buy copper, gold, nickel etc. to manufacture electronic components for the broadcast industry. We've deliberately sucked up years worth of increases without raising prices because of our client base threatening to use an inferior product from outside of the US. I'm sure he's been doing the same. Sad situation when price is the only consideration.

[Wayner]

As part of the AVA group, I do my part getting the mechanical drawings done, and getting the quote process going. We try to design products that are design friendly and very matrix oriented. As you know, we have basically 2 chassis that all of the product is built on, incorporating all the holes, and features needed for any of the amps, preamps, DACs or special function devices to be built on. This was not done over night. It is a continuous process of engineering (based on meeting customer needs and wants), that keeps pushing the design. Yes it is getting very, very complicated as time goes on, but everything has it's place.

These are some of the practices that are done to keep the costs down. That is why also each unit is built at order time, to keep dollars for material and labor from sitting on a shelf, which the consumer pays for even if he doesn't know it, with other companies.

For those that have worked in a manufacturing setting, I think you know completely what I'm talking about. To others, I don't expect you to understand, but running a company foolishly costs the customer money in the long run. Inventory must be balanced. Designs must be nothing more, nothing less then what the customer expects, and last (tho there are plenty more reasons), try to build in upgrade-ability.

That is one of the true values of AVA. Upgrades can be had for reasonable prices that bring the owner right into the state of the art.

Wayner

[rcag_ils]

These are some of the practices that are done to keep the costs down. That is why also each unit is built at order time, to keep dollars for material and labor from sitting on a shelf, which the consumer pays for even if he doesn't know it, with other companies.

For those that have worked in a manufacturing setting, I think you know completely what I'm talking about. To others, I don't expect you to understand, but running a company foolishly costs the customer money in the long run. Inventory must be balanced. Designs must be nothing more, nothing less then what the customer expects, and last (tho there are plenty more reasons), try to build in upgrade-ability.

That is one of the true values of AVA. Upgrades can be had for reasonable prices that bring the owner right into the state of the art.

That's just the description of the company philosophy, and I respect that.

What you've said does not elaborate on how you plan on keeping the cost down. Especially when vendor knowningly jacking up price on parts, you have no plan to keep the cost down, but to pass the cost increase onto the customers.

There are options out there: 1. find other vendors that can manufacture the same parts with less cost for your amps. 2. Contact the Chinese and outsource parts from oversea, the Chinese probably would even offer you a good deal for making the amps for you.

Once you initiate these options, I bet Dynxxxxit.com would beg you to buy their parts for just a slight increase. That's what production managers would do in a manufacturing setting, keep the cost down and keep the customer base. Unless brother-in-law rule kicks in, that you have to give the business to Dynxxxxit.com.

[AVnerdguy]

From one of your earlier posts......As you can see, the Chinese build them cheap, but they don't sell them to you cheap, not in hifi, they have to charge a compatitive price to keep the market going. In hifi, the Chinese made hardware parts, like gold jacks are not the same as U.S. or European made, however, the electronic parts are all made in the Orient. After the Chinese put a product together with cheap parts and cheap labor, then they charge a market price, therefore, they are making tons of money. I don't support this kind of practice if I can help it, so for hifi, I don't buy Chinese made stuff. Shoes, I have no choice, 99.9% of the shoes are made in China, even the Red Wing shoes.


You know, there are so many factors that go into pricing such as materials, inventory, transportation etc. that sometimes the manufacturer has no choice but to pass the cost along. That's just the way it works sometimes. In order to assure that the product meets the requirements they advertise they prefer to stay with a known supplier. I still don't think the increase is excessive because of the stringent QC applied and the value offered for these products.

I wish I could have gotten the 15% AVA discount on the new amp and pre I purchased this summer BUT the value I received still made it a bargain and I'd purchase them again - even with a 25% - 30% increase.

[rcag_ils]

From one of your earlier posts......As you can see, the Chinese build them cheap, but they don't sell them to you cheap, not in hifi, they have to charge a competitive price to keep the market going. In hifi, the Chinese made hardware parts, like gold jacks are not the same as U.S. or European made, however, the electronic parts are all made in the Orient. After the Chinese put a product together with cheap parts and cheap labor, then they charge a market price, therefore, they are making tons of money. I don't support this kind of practice if I can help it, so for hifi, I don't buy Chinese made stuff. Shoes, I have no choice, 99.9% of the shoes are made in China, even the Red Wing shoes.

You are absolutely right, or I am absolutely right for that matter. Chinese use cheap parts and cheap labor, but they charge a competitive price. But that competitive price is still cheaper than what U.S. companies would charge.

As I stated, I don't support this kind of practice if I can help it. But when "where state of the art is affordable" becomes unaffordable because it's vendor decided to jack up the price because certain product are getting regonition from a major HIFI magazine, and want a bigger piece of the pie and nothing is being done to keep the price down. Then I may have to support the Chinese practice because I can't help it.

You know, there are so many factors that go into pricing such as materials, inventory, transportation etc. that sometimes the manufacturer has no choice but to pass the cost along. That's just the way it works sometimes. In order to assure that the product meets the requirements they advertise they prefer to stay with a known supplier. I still don't think the increase is excessive because of the stringent QC applied and the value offered for these products.

I wish I could have gotten the 15% AVA discount on the new amp and pre I purchased this summer BUT the value I received still made it a bargain and I'd purchase them again - even with a 25% - 30% increase.

HiFi is not a wide scale mega million units per hour production business, small highend cult product probably will get by with being held hostage by greedy parts vendors, at least for a while. But I am not sure how long this will hold. When Quad shipped their 50 years old speaker making tool to China and said the Chinese do more quality work there then in England. The president of Well Tempered up there giving the Chinese lecture and showing them how to made turntables there. Marshall amps that are made in Vietnam look and sound no different than the higher end English made models. Only time will tell, all I am saying is we need to do something about it.

[Wayner]

Did you ever think that the Ultravalve won awards because Frank did not go down the Chinese path of parts that you want him too? AVA makes amplifiers that sound great, if the price can be kept down, so be it. If not, what you like to have sacrificed, sound quality?

It's hard enough to find the right components that work, let alone tickle the funnt bone because they were giving the parts away. If you like Chinese parts, then go buy some amp made in China.

Wayner

[bregez]

I am not sure the Chinese are capable of making the chassis that the Ultravalve uses.  That thing is a piece of art in itself and made extremely solid.  I try my best to stay away from Chinese parts in audio as much as I can.  Here is a fine example of a supposedly Chinese made capacitor.  Yikes!

[rcag_ils]

Did you ever think that the Ultravalve won awards because Frank did not go down the Chinese path of parts that you want him too?

Where do you think the Panasonic caps and the Dale resistors are being made? They are made somewhere in the Asian realm. The Chinese made audio transformers and chassis are probably just as good as the American made, if you give them the spec. to make it and meet.

I, like everyone else would rather have my amp made in the U.S.. Frank makes good sounding gear, but when parts get to be too expensive and possibly affect sale, I'd look else where for parts. Designed in the U.S., but made in China. Many, many Bristish HiFi companies are doing it.

[Wayner]

You know what rcag_ils, I'm getting really sick of you. You insulted Frank, You've insulted our vendor(s) and friends at www.Dynakitparts.com, and you don't really have a clue what goes on at AVA or probably at any other place.

In other words, take a hike.

Wayner

[jtwrace]

www.Dynakitparts.com

   These are REALLY good people IMO.

[mark funk]

Thanks Wayner, I might go a little farther, why didn't you move to China. As I said a few years back in a post. That is one of the big reasons I own Frank's stuff. Made in the USA by people making a living wage! I am mad as hell about all this shit and I really don't want to read about it here! Lets get back to what most of us are here for hay!


                                                                                                   
                                                                                                   

[Niteshade]

You will find that 3/4's of all audio companies have major assemblies or sub assemblies made in China. That's one way of keeping jobs over there.  It keeps prices down (for them) and profits up. Quality? Well- if the stuff being assembled is closely monitored, it will be fine.  I still dislike the principle of moving business/jobs away form the USA.

Unfortunately, manufacturers are forced to purchase discreet components made in China. 

A big THANKS goes to the good folks who still manufacture in the USA!

[silvermesa]

I certainly appreciate that Frank has given all interested parties notice of the pending price increase. I have been considering the purchase of some AVA gear anyway and will order his ultra valve amp tomorrow!

My suggestion to the one who is complaining about the price increase so much is to order one or move on. A company has the right to price their products as they wish.

I really appreciate things made in America! I am tired of buying chinese stuff just because of a price point. We can clearly see as a country what buying overseas products has done here. I say put America to work!

Keep up the good work Frank!

[AVnerdguy]

Lets get back to what most of us are here for hay!

Agreed! This is an discussion that will never end. To each his own opinion. My intent was to simply state that the increase was not out of line considering the circumstances and that VALUE is more important than cost most of the time. I believe we all agree that AVA is a great value.

[rcag_ils]

You know what rcag_ils, I'm getting really sick of you. You insulted Frank, You've insulted our vendor(s) and friends at www.Dynakitparts.com, and you don't really have a clue what goes on at AVA or probably at any other place.

Well, I know the capacitors and resistors are made in the Pacific realm.

Before you falsely accuse anyone (me, in this case), would you mind pointing out which statement that I've made that's insulting? I made no statement that's insulting to Frank, and I never will. To the part vendor, I've never said that they are bad people, they are just a little greedy that's all, and so what, that's not insulting, there are lots of greedy people out there, so what's so insulting about that?

As far as Mr. Flunk's comment about moving to China, I guess many companies already have, just take a look at the shoes that you are wearing. My point is if we don't keep the price down here, jobs will go oversea. Now is that insulting? Take some economic classes and you know what I am talking about.

Unfortunately, manufacturers are forced to purchase discreet components made in China.

Manufacturers are forced to purchase discreet components from China because the U.S. part vendors charged way to much for their parts and the manufacturers could not make a profit to stay in business. To meet manufacturers price demend, part vendors had to move their factories to China to cut cost.

[mark funk]

That's Funk. 




                                                                                   

[simon wagstaff]

Ultravalve is still a bargain at it's new price. I am a pragmatic sort of fellow so I am very happy with the cosmetics of my U-70 (or lack thereof)

if anybody is still on the fence about buying one it is the most satisfying piece of audio equipment I own.

[avahifi]

OK, you guys complaining about the coming Ultravalve price increase, I have a suggestion:  Buy one right now before the price increase takes effect!

You guys who are complaining and never intend to buy one, get lost!

The price is being forced higher for several reasons.

1.  We simply were not making any money on the amp at its old price.  Because of the extra care needed in assembly to preserve the polished stainless chassis, labor time and cost is MUCH higher than I had previously estimated.  One slipped screwdriver and a chassis is ruined. I have done it myself.

2.  Parts cost increases are not just limited to the chassis and transformers.  Vacuum tubes, passive parts, even mounting hardware and connection wire have all gone up in price.

3.  Even though I am not making much money from this business (I do it for the love of it, not to get rich) all my employees got raises this year.  Something has to pay for it.  The Ultravalve amp was the most underpriced piece in our product line and had to take the price increase hit first.

As The Absolute Sound has said several times, the Ultravalve amplifier is the best bargain in audio equipment you can buy today, even at the new price.  Enjoy and don't complain so much.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine



 

[simon wagstaff]

What he said!  I am looking to maybe upgrade the speaker binding posts, OMG, the price of some of them!