[putz]

Recently bought a Jolida 502 BRC with Jolida KT88-98 tubes. My first venture into the world of Tubes. After a lot of online research, I've narrowed down potential upgrade tubes to either the Pentas or Shuguangs listed in the title. Not really considering NOS tubes at this time. Speakers are Salk Songtowers, 89 db efficiency.  I've already upgraded the Preamp tubes with Mullard 12AT7 and EI 12AX7.

1. I know the Jolida is a starter amp and not sure how much it will benefit from better tubes.

2. Shuguang Treasures supposed to be the Cadillac of KT88s. Are they worth the extra expense in my setup?

3. Do I buy Shuguangs from an allegedly reputable Chinese seller (GoodConnection) or pay extra to buy from what seems to be the only North American dealer (Grant Fidelity) who claims better guarantee and quality control?

[Tubeburner]

The Gold Lion Reissue KT88 are excellant tubes. Buy them from Jim McShane with no worries. Save your money.

[Wind Chaser]

As far as customer service goes, Grant Fidelity has been outstanding.  I had a tube failure, which was probably my own fault, but there was no debate, resistance or hesitation on their part to help me out.  They replaced it free of charge and shipped it overnight.  That level and quality of service is very important when you need it.

[Ericus Rex]

The stock Jolida tubes are probably made by Shuguang, who (methinks) makes the Penta brand.  Post a pic of the Jolida tube and we might be able to accurately guess its manufacturer.  If it is actually a Shuggy, then you might not get any sound difference with the Penta.

[rklein]

You might find this thread helpful as well:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=89231.0

Good Luck,

Randy

[Wayne1]

FWIW,

I recently purchased an Eastern Electric M88 integrated amp. It also uses KT88, 12AU7, and 12AX7 tubes.

The tubes that come stock with it are Eastern Electric branded Shugaung. I first tried a set of the Penta output tubes with a Mullard 12AX7. There was an astounding improvement across the board.

After consulting with both Tyson and Pez, who have been tube rolling pentodes for some time, I ordered a set of factory matched Treasure KT88 and Pavane 12A*7 from Grant Fidelity. They were quite a bit less expensive than their Class A series. They came with serial numbers and the factory matching data.

They have been fantastic. A definite improvement over the Pentas and Mullard.

Get in touch with Rachel and ask her about that option and let her know you are thinking about goodconnection. See what kind of price she might be willing to give you. I know I feel more relieved knowing if I have any problems, they are fairly close by.

[Levi]

+1 for Grant Fidelity vs Fleebay.  I would rather get it from someone we already knew.

I heard the Shuguang Treasure KT66 but not the KT88. 

My McIntosh MC-60 monos likes the Genalex Gold Lion Reissue KT88 and Tungsol 6550.   The reissue are very close to the original Genalex Gold Lion KT88 that I still have. 

[rklein]

As far as the Treasure tubes, I echo Wayne's post about contacting Grant Fidelity and discussing pricing on the "B" tubes.  I do not know anything about "GoodConnection" but Gopher has had very good luck with Goodcomponent.com and Bunky has had very good luck with Hanshare Electronics.  When I contacted H.E. about getting three matched Treasure 6SN7 tubes, they were very quick and helpful with their response.  However, now that I have competitive pricing, I may give a call to Rachel at G.F. to talk about pricing on her "B" Black Treasures as well.

You can find Hanshare Electronics either through a website called alibaba.com or they can be found on ebay as well.

Randy

[davidrs]

Hi Putz,

Per others posts and links, I have a feeling your questions are covered.

Folks at Grant Fidelity are terrific and only you can evaluate your own price to service sensitivity and how risk open or averse you are.

Shipping from China is super-fast. I've received gear from HK in two business days via DHL beats anything in States or from Canada to the US.

Let us know which way you go.

- David.

[davidrs]

I believe this is part of what Putz was asking, in-directly at least.

I've been curious about this as well. And have wondered where it might be best to put the dollars in a similar situation, so will ask the question a bit more specifically? (Since the responses so far are focused on which tubes / which source might be best for Putz).

Do AC members have an opinion on:

the trade-off between a quality tube upgrade on a more 'basic' component vs.  putting the dollars spent on the tubes into a slightly higher level component?

Using Putz' situation, for illustration purposes only, the Jolida 502BRC is lets say roughly around $1000. A set of 4 KT88 Premium A Zs is roughly around 500. (Note: Using rough numbers for example sake).

So at one extreme would be a stock integrated at roughly $1500

vs. the 502BRC or any other similarly priced integrated (that is, irrespective of specific amp) + top of the line Shuguangs.

And, of course the variations in between, utilizing less costly tubes.

Any perspective and thoughts on this.

Thanks,

David.



 

[putz]

David,

Thanks for covering this part of my question. I paid less than $1,000 for the Jolida and based on my budget, it seemed like a good deal. I could have spent more and gotten better, but that was not an option. And a better amp would still have probably come with stock tubes similar to what i got with the Jolida and I still would be looking at upgrading.

I don't want to spend more than $300 on the tubes I ultimately buy. But I was also asking if an amp like my Jolida would get the full benefit of an upgraded tube like the Treasure or if I was better off with a Penta, etc. for less $.

I will try to take a picture tonite of the Jolida tube and post it here. It's most likely a Shunguang. But also most likely not the same quality as the tubes they make for upgrade purposes.

I believe this is part of what Putz was asking, in-directly at least.

I've been curious about this as well. And have wondered where it might be best to put the dollars in a similar situation, so will ask the question a bit more specifically? (Since the responses so far are focused on which tubes / which source might be best for Putz).

Do AC members have an opinion on:

the trade-off between a quality tube upgrade on a more 'basic' component vs.  putting the dollars spent on the tubes into a slightly higher level component?

Using Putz' situation, for illustration purposes only, the Jolida 502BRC is lets say roughly around $1000. A set of 4 KT88 Premium A Zs is roughly around 500. (Note: Using rough numbers for example sake).

So at one extreme would be a stock integrated at roughly $1500

vs. the 502BRC or any other similarly priced integrated (that is, irrespective of specific amp) + top of the line Shuguangs.

And, of course the variations in between, utilizing less costly tubes.

Any perspective and thoughts on this.

Thanks,

David.

[rklein]

I don't want to spend more than $300 on the tubes I ultimately buy. But I was also asking if an amp like my Jolida would get the full benefit of an upgraded tube like the Treasure or if I was better off with a Penta, etc. for less $.

You can get a factory matched quad of Black Treasure KT-88's from Hanshare Electronics for $259 with free shipping.

Randy

[Pez]

I would recommend....  Oh wait... I somehow already made a recommendation.   

[davidrs]

Hi Putz,

Jolida gets good press for what it offers at its price-point. And since you are already in, upgrading the tubes makes total sense. You most likely will get a return from upgrading the tubes, though you may have to play around with 'which tubes' get you to where it is you want to get to.

Another option to consider, and one that was remarkable in bumping up my system's sound quality, is adding Herbie's Tube Dampers to your signal tubes. In my opinion, and with my system, the return on doing this was significant. In any case, I recommend you do so, no matter which tubes you end up with.

In some cases, to address one of your points, an upgrade in an amp can mean a slight to major upgrade in the tubes, even if they are from the same tube manufacturer (i.e. the flavors of Shuguang KT88s as you walk up their ladder), or better yet a different one (for example getting Genelex Gold Lions with an amp vs. a "lesser" set of KT88s with a less expensive amp).

My question from the previous post, and it is a general one (not trying to make it specific to your situation), still remains for someone, like me, who is considering an amp purchase.

There is a unit I've had my eyes on. It would come in at around $900 shipped. If I were to upgrade all the tubes, I would likely be out between $400 to $750 for the full set (i.e. a decent tube upgrade vs. going all out with GF's top of the line Shuguangs).

In my case, do I put those dollars into a slightly higher unit, live with the stock tubes for awhile and then upgrade the tubes, at a later date when the budget allows for that.

One reference point for me is my Melody I2A3, which (I think it was 6moons) the reviewer loved and did do extensive tube rolling with, but ended up preferring the stock tubes and strongly recommended against tube rolling, given his results.

So, back to the question I posted earlier.

Do you get "more" and what do you get by putting the tube upgrade dollars into a slightly higher quality unit?

- David.

[bigjppop]

Up front, I've never heard any of the tubes in question so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.  For the last year or so I've been bitten by the DIY bug and have been building my own tube amps.  For my hard earned dollars, the mega buck tube upgrades are very low on my priority list.  I think your money is better spent other places, especially the output transformers when it comes to tube amps. 

Now, I can't say that just because an amp costs more means it has better iron, but I would probably give my money to a designer/builder that focuses more of the product budget on transformers than tubes.  I think a well designed amp, with quality iron, and good parts (NOT $200 capacitors and wire that goes for $10 bucks a foot) should perform very well with just about any tubes.  For example, I recently built a SET amp that has MONSTER output transformers and sounds fantastic with some Chinese 6l6GC tubes I got on ebay for 10 bucks a quad.  I bought them for testing purposes, but they sound great.  Are there better tubes out there, sure.  Are they worth the HUGE premium in price??? Not in my world, especially if it would have meant having to cut the budget on my iron.

So, like I said, take my thoughts with a grain of salt as I've never heard the tubes in question.  I have spent some bucks on tube upgrades for some of my headphone amps and did notice a difference, but not nearly the difference I've seen by spending that money on quality transformers.

As an aside, I really do love to see new production tubes rolling off the line.  Tubes shouldn't cost an arm and a leg and the new production stuff, not to mention the surplus Russian stuff, can sound really great.

[Pez]

Yes iron, caps etc all matter. As a fellow DIYer I agree whole-heartedly. I have gigantic Edcor transformers, oversized oil power supply caps Jensen coupling caps etc etc. Where we disagree is when you do all that great stuff and then put some $hit tubes in your system. Yes it will sound better than a bad amp with great tubes, but trust me as I have used EVERYTHING the Treasures are the best and quite literally nothing I have tried NOS or otherwise has come close. Combine them with some Herbies tube dampers and it's a game changer my friends. Tube rolling for me.... A thing of the past.

[davidrs]

For my hard earned dollars, the mega buck tube upgrades are very low on my priority list.  I think your money is better spent other places, especially the output transformers when it comes to tube amps. 

Now, I can't say that just because an amp costs more means it has better iron, but I would probably give my money to a designer/builder that focuses more of the product budget on transformers than tubes.  I think a well designed amp, with quality iron, and good parts (NOT $200 capacitors and wire that goes for $10 bucks a foot) should perform very well with just about any tubes.

I have spent some bucks on tube upgrades for some of my headphone amps and did notice a difference, but not nearly the difference I've seen by spending that money on quality transformers.

Thanks, Bigjppop!

Exactly the type of feedback I was looking for.

- David.

[bigjppop]

Yes iron, caps etc all matter. As a fellow DIYer I agree whole-heartedly. I have gigantic Edcor transformers, oversized oil power supply caps Jensen coupling caps etc etc. Where we disagree is when you do all that great stuff and then put some $hit tubes in your system. Yes it will sound better than a bad amp with great tubes, but trust me as I have used EVERYTHING the Treasures are the best and quite literally nothing I have tried NOS or otherwise has come close. Combine them with some Herbies tube dampers and it's a game changer my friends. Tube rolling for me.... A thing of the past.

I think we actually run the same amp and the same transformers (tubelab Simple SE with the giant edcors).  I'm sure "better" tubes will find their way into my amp at some point, mostly because I already own them and when it comes down to it tube rolling is an addiction and I have a problem.  Maybe at some point I'll try something like the Treasures, but I think we both agree that if getting the Treasures meant you had to scrap your Edcors and go with a couple of one pound transformers from a no name vendor... I'm not sure the decision would be a difficult one to make.

[Pez]

This is true. 

Here's a link to my build. Did you post yours anywhere?

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73713.0

(sorry for the sidebar... Please continue on w/ the topic)

[bigjppop]

No, but I should.  I'm actually thinking of copying something similar to your chassis for my next build.  I really like the dovetail joints with the Japanese flavor.

Anyway, also sorry for the off topic post.