[john1970]

Dear Everyone,

I am considering upgrading my HT system so I can listen to the lossless audio on Blu-Ray disc.  My current Blu-Ray player does not support internal decoding.  As I see it I have the following two options:

1) Upgrade Blu-Ray player to Oppo-93.  Cost is $500.  This would allow me to decode high-res formats in the player and send the signal to the 5.1 analog inputs in my current SP1.7 decoder.  As an added bonus I could also listen to my SACD in either 2 CH or 5 CH modes.  My selection of SACD is only 3% of my total collection so it is not a huge factor.

2) Upgrade to Byrston SP3.  Cost is going to be $9000 to $10000.  This would allow to decode the HDMI output from the player.

Is there any advantage of the second option over the first?  Is the advantage worth an order of magnitude increase in cost?  I only have 5 speakers in my HT system.

Note, I currently own a BP25 / MPS-2 / BDA-1 / 4BSST2 front end for my stereo listening.  If I did not own the BP25 / MPS-2 / BDA-1 I would consider using the SP3 as an all-in one  preamp / processor / dac.


Thank you for the advice,

John

-

[Phil A]

I've been using a modded Oppo BDP-83 with the SP1.7 for a time.  I have a BDP-93 in the bedroom system.  The advantage of doing the decoding in a pre/pro is more available sound adjustments such as bass crossover.  With the BDP-93 you can also get a cheap HDMI audio de-embedder and convert your SACDS TO PCM in the BDP-93 (at 88.2kHz) and output it to the BDA-1 and upsampling it to 176.4kHz (I do this now too).  The disadvantages are the costs and the fact that digital and video technology change more rapidly than other things.  The processing in the SP3 for home theater might be obsolete or at least long in the tooth 4-8 years down the road I'd guess.  I've made the decision I'm going with a home theater pre/pro and 2 channel preamp with HT Bypass.  I picked up a used Integra DTC-9.8 yesterday on Craigslist for a whole $600.  It has HDMI 1.3 and except for 3D, which I have not immediate plans for in the main system (I'd probably do it on the 4.1 computer system first as I need less to do it down the road and then the secondary basement system where the major component I'm missing is a projector but I did not go real high end when I bought one three years ago for that reason).  So far, from the little I've heard it (the Integra) sounds really good on movies.  At the price point I got it for (the guy got a Marantz AV7005 only because it had HDMI 1.4 for 3D and he had a relatively simple HT system with a BDP-93 and a PS3 as the sources, Emotiva amps and Definitive Technology speakers), I'm good to go for a bit.  Even with a trade in, you are still going to put out a lot of change for something that contains technology that has a relatively short technological life span.  If you're really into multi-channel music then something that has really good multi-channel analog inputs like the SP3 would be nice.

[john1970]

I've been using a modded Oppo BDP-83 with the SP1.7 for a time.  I have a BDP-93 in the bedroom system.  The advantage of doing the decoding in a pre/pro is more available sound adjustments such as bass crossover.  With the BDP-93 you can also get a cheap HDMI audio de-embedder and convert your SACDS TO PCM in the BDP-93 (at 88.2kHz) and output it to the BDA-1 and upsampling it to 176.4kHz (I do this now too).  The disadvantages are the costs and the fact that digital and video technology change more rapidly than other things.  The processing in the SP3 for home theater might be obsolete or at least long in the tooth 4-8 years down the road I'd guess.  I've made the decision I'm going with a home theater pre/pro and 2 channel preamp with HT Bypass.  I picked up a used Integra DTC-9.8 yesterday on Craigslist for a whole $600.  It has HDMI 1.3 and except for 3D, which I have not immediate plans for in the main system (I'd probably do it on the 4.1 computer system first as I need less to do it down the road and then the secondary basement system where the major component I'm missing is a projector but I did not go real high end when I bought one three years ago for that reason).  So far, from the little I've heard it (the Integra) sounds really good on movies.  At the price point I got it for (the guy got a Marantz AV7005 only because it had HDMI 1.4 for 3D and he had a relatively simple HT system with a BDP-93 and a PS3 as the sources, Emotiva amps and Definitive Technology speakers), I'm good to go for a bit.  Even with a trade in, you are still going to put out a lot of change for something that contains technology that has a relatively short technological life span.  If you're really into multi-channel music then something that has really good multi-channel analog inputs like the SP3 would be nice.

Phil,

Thank you for the advice.  I purchased the SP1.7 used so I doubt that Bryston would give me any trade-in towards a SP3.  I also agree that the lifespaan of the current HT audio format is 4 to 8 years at best.

Can you please provide more detail on how you de-embedded  and converted the SACDS to PCM?  Does the player do this or did you modify it?

Cheers,

John

[alexone]

John,

i think that the SP1, SP1.7 and the SP2 can be traded in. that's what i understood from James' statements about this program. so if money matters (and it always does!) then just wait for the trade-in program and see if the price is too hot or not...and then ask your question again? i own a SP2 and i am very interested too in how this thing will work out to say the least...

al.

[Phil A]

Phil,

Thank you for the advice.  I purchased the SP1.7 used so I doubt that Bryston would give me any trade-in towards a SP3.  I also agree that the lifespaan of the current HT audio format is 4 to 8 years at best.

Can you please provide more detail on how you de-embedded  and converted the SACDS to PCM?  Does the player do this or did you modify it?


John, the player does not need to be modded.  There is a setting in the player for outputting SACD over HDMI as either DSD or PCM.  You would set it as DSD if you had a receiver or pre/pro that decoded DSD, otherwise you leave it at PCM.  The chip in the Oppo (I'd assume the BDP-93 is the same but I have not tested it yet - might want to check the discless circle) is limited to 88.2kHz.  HDMI versions 1.2 and later allowed the digital output SACD via HDMI.  I've believe the Sony Blu-Ray players, some older PS3s (that played SACD) and a few others can output 176.4kHz PCM.  I may pick up a Sony at Costco on Monday just for the heck of it.  With a coupon, I think the player will end up costing $90. 

The BDP-93 with 2 HDMI outs will make it easy as one can go to the HDMI audio de-embedder (that's another reason I might try the Sony as I won't have to go behind the equipment to swap in and out HDMI cables).  There are a few made.  Here's one:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2

It is made by a company from Hong Kong - Port-ta.  You can Google the Port-ta PET4000 which is the same as the Monoprice switch.  I have both and pictures in my Gallery.  I verified they are identical and can pass 192kHz audio.  The best way the above switch sounds is with no HDMI switch connected to the output the the 5.1/2.0 switch set to 5.1 (I just pass 2-channel).  It just seems to sound a bit better than way.  On many things, I prefer SACDs going to the BDA-1 via the de-embedder vs. my modded BDP-83.  So you get quite nice sound.  If you have a player that does that, an HDMI cable, a nice DAC and about $50 for the de-embedder with shipping you have a great tweak/upgrade.  I actually have a Squeezebox Touch and I got an upgraded power supply and it works for the Monoprice switch too.  I swap the power supply too when I want to listen.
Cheers,

John

[wilsonij]

...you can also get a cheap HDMI audio de-embedder and convert your SACDS TO PCM in the BDP-93 (at 88.2kHz) and output it to the BDA-1 and upsampling it to 176.4kHz (I do this now too)

I too use the excellent Oppo BDP as a transport into the SP1.7 passthru...

...but is anyone able to explain what the 'HDMI audio de-embedder' is actually doing ?

[jaywills]

"is anyone able to explain what the 'HDMI audio de-embedder' is actually doing ?"

As I understand it (and I use one), the device splits off the digital audio signal from the HDMI stream and outputs it via coax or toslink (or both) to a dac that's capable of reading the higher quality digital stream.  From thence, it goes to your amplification.  I use a Sony BDP s370 for blu-ray and sacd (it outputs 24/176 sacd) and an Oppo for DVD-a, and there is a clear and noticeable difference from 44.1 files.  My whole blu-ray/sacd/dvd-a setup, including the de-embedder, cost >$500 and was a welcome upgrade.  My dac, which will read up to 24/192, is a TacT 2.2x (modded).

[Phil A]

"is anyone able to explain what the 'HDMI audio de-embedder' is actually doing ?"

As I understand it (and I use one), the device splits off the digital audio signal from the HDMI stream and outputs it via coax or toslink (or both) to a dac that's capable of reading the higher quality digital stream.  From thence, it goes to your amplification.  I use a Sony BDP s370 for blu-ray and sacd (it outputs 24/176 sacd) and an Oppo for DVD-a, and there is a clear and noticeable difference from 44.1 files.  My whole blu-ray/sacd/dvd-a setup, including the de-embedder, cost >$500 and was a welcome upgrade.  My dac, which will read up to 24/192, is a TacT 2.2x (modded).

Can you do me a favor and tell me what all the settings were on the Sony S370?  I've been using the BDP-83 and picked up the 'X37, (which is the same thing) at Costco for $95 with a coupon and at one point the DAC read it was receiving 176.4KHz but I got no sound from the DAC's analog outs.  I swapped the HDMI cable to the Oppo BDP-83 and immediately got sound.  I tried a bunch of things after that and just moved the Sony to the computer 4.1 system and can output DSD to my Pioneer 1120 which drives it.  The BDP-83 sounds great upsampled from 88.2kHz to 176.4kHz (and I have an upgraded power supply for the audio de-embedder too).

I honestly think that for hi-rez it is a better way to go than an expensive SACD or universal player.  I told a friend about the unit and he bought one to use with his BDA-1 (as I do) and shelved plans to get an expensive SACD player.  With a DAC, you have multiple inputs to use with different sources and don't need to worry about a transport wearing out.  You can just simply get another transport.

[jaywills]

No problem, Phil.  The relevant Sony's audio settings are:

Audio (HDMI): PCM
DSD Output Mode:  Off
BD Audio Mix Setting:  Off (important)
Downmix: Stereo

The dolby digital, dts and neo:6 settings do not appear to affect the music output.

If you have the Monoprice de-embedder, as I do, please make sure to set it on 5.1ch (NOT 2ch).  For whatever reason, when it's set on 2ch, I got no output from it into my dac.  Good luck.  Cordially,

[ted_b]

I too use the excellent Oppo BDP as a transport into the SP1.7 passthru...

...but is anyone able to explain what the 'HDMI audio de-embedder' is actually doing ?

Wilsonij,
I discovered the HDMi de-embedder solution and wrote about it here.  Since my review Phil and others have found even less expensive (and frankly more features) in box's like the $45 Monoprice.  As Jaywills mentioned, set it for 5.1ch, not 2 channel, but play 2 channel material of course.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82217.0

[wilsonij]

Thanks guys

I think I have a better grasp of what the components are doing, though there's clearly alot of confusion out there as to a) what can, and what can't be done and b) what makes the biggest difference.

Given all of my FLAC files are ripped from 44.1kHz/16bit cd's then my Logitech Duet will stream that ok. If I combine that with some means of direct playing hires material using HDMI splitting technique then that covers both bases.

BTW I was interested to see the thread about hires FLAC at http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Ripping-SACD-Analog-output-FLAC (presumably the same Ted B ?)

At this point my only problem is, being in the UK, I can't use monoprice but I have found this http://hdcompany.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=105 for £55 (approx $82) which appears to do the same thing, and also this http://www.climaxdigital.co.uk/epages/BT3449.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT3449/Products/111177 for £89 (approx $133) which provides TWO HDMI outs plus a remote control.

What I'm not sure about though is the discrepancy between the devices; the first says "10.2Gbps in support of Full HD 1080p" and the second "Full HD 1080p... bandwidth can be up to 2.25Gbps/per channel". They can't *both* be right can they !?

Ian

[Phil A]

No problem, Phil.  The relevant Sony's audio settings are:

Audio (HDMI): PCM
DSD Output Mode:  Off
BD Audio Mix Setting:  Off (important)
Downmix: Stereo

The dolby digital, dts and neo:6 settings do not appear to affect the music output.

If you have the Monoprice de-embedder, as I do, please make sure to set it on 5.1ch (NOT 2ch).  For whatever reason, when it's set on 2ch, I got no output from it into my dac.  Good luck.  Cordially,

Thanks, I'll try it again.  I have both the Port-ta and Monoprice boxes which are the same.  I do leave the box on 5.1 as it sounds better.  I had no problem on either 2 channel or 5.1 with the Oppo BDP-83.

[ted_b]

Ian,
As my review states, there are/were many of these boxes that reportedly didn't work, so I would get one with a good return policy.  We know the Porta, Monoprice, Atlona and a few others do work.

[Dannypos]

I too use the excellent Oppo BDP as a transport into the SP1.7 passthru...

Sorry to bring up an old.post.
I have the Bryston SP2 and am considering an Oppo HD .multi player to go into the 5.1 analog inputs.
How did you find that the sound compared to using a non HD blu ray player compared to a HD player going into the 5.1 analog inputs?
The Bryston SP2.with a standard blu ray player connected by the optical input sounds excellent!
How does your Oppo sound in HD in comparison?

Thanks.

[bcugk]

Following as I have the same query

[Phil A]

I too use the excellent Oppo BDP as a transport into the SP1.7 passthru...

Sorry to bring up an old.post.
I have the Bryston SP2 and am considering an Oppo HD .multi player to go into the 5.1 analog inputs.
How did you find that the sound compared to using a non HD blu ray player compared to a HD player going into the 5.1 analog inputs?
The Bryston SP2.with a standard blu ray player connected by the optical input sounds excellent!
How does your Oppo sound in HD in comparison?

Thanks.

There are different things which people are asking and these are 10+ year old threads.  There's a long thread here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82217.0    Some of what is answered is meant for taking hi-rez audio (e.g. SACDs) directly to your DAC (which if you read through the long thread above I used to do that with my old Bryston BDA-1).  So I would give this advice at this point in time - are you interested in multi-channel audio or movies?  A Bryston SP2 (and I owned an SP1.7 many moons ago) will sound great using the analog multi-channel input for either multi-channel music or movies (I used it that way).  That being said, understand it is 5.1 only and newer standards can have more channels.  The processor in the SP2 is dated when using something other than the analog inputs.  So that being said, one must look to the processor in the source component.  Many of these are designed with the assumption one would be transmitting a movie signal via HDMI or a digital input and the processing done inside the receiver or home theater processor. 

I eventually abandoned the high end audio preamp/processor as digital technology (e.g. surround sound) changes more rapidly than analog audio and the price of good preamp/processors went up rapidly and as the technolgy changes there are things it cannot do (that's fine for those satisfied with what it does).  I went with 2-channel preamps with HT Bypass so that I could get a receiver (mostly refurbs as it is less costly when technology evolves and I could always rotate the old one into a secondary system) and have the 2-channel preamp for music.  Towards the end of the time I owned the SP1.7 I had an Integra DTC 9.8 (pre/pro).  The SP1.7 of course was worlds better for music but it couldn't match it on HT.  That's when I decided to go the way of a 2-channel preamp with HT Bypass and still use that today in my integrated music/HT system.

When I had the SP1.7 (and that was probably about a dozen years back, give or take), I used an Oppo (modded BDP-83 which I still have and then briefly a BDP-93 which I no longer have) and it did a great job on multi-channel music (and probably still does) and a good job on movies.  Back then, until I tried the DTC 9.8 (which I picked up used), I did not feel the need to upgrade.  If you search the Bryston forum you'll probably find posts about the SP1.7 vs. SP2 (and I heard that is person as well) and it will probably tell you that the SP2 had slightly better processing power for HT but it substantially the same (if not identical) via the analog inputs (in which case the source is decoding the signal).

It is much easier to start a new thread (vs. one which is really old and may deal with other issues vs. what you are seeking) and best to put those in an appropriate circle.  If you are talking analog inputs as noted, the SP2 is still a great unit (and some of the prices in the used market for the SP1.7 or SP2 are silly cheap vs. a Bryston SP-25 and analog wise they are pretty much identical).  If you are asking about home theater (and using the analog inputs), then perhaps it is appropriate to put a new post in the home theater area as you would be using the processor in the source unit on analog connections and using the processor in the SP2 on digital ones (e.g. coax or toslink).  There will be some info here on the Bryston units and I'm sure someone can weigh in on the SP3 or SP4 (which would be worlds better for HT) but if you're looking for general info on HT processing from something like a particular Oppo player, it may be better to post in the home theater area.

[Phil A]

Just to give a bit more perspective on the above.  When I used the HDMI audio de-embedder (noted in the thread linked in my prior post about using the de-embedder to take hi-rez to your DAC) I had a modded Oppo BDP-83, the SP1.7 and a Bryston BDA-1 DAC.  With the set-up, I was able to compare hi-rez 2-channel playing through the modded Oppo directing into the 2-channel input of the SP1.7 vs. going through the (HDMI de-embedder and into the coax input of the BDA-1). 

First let me qualify that I didn't use the de-embedder with the cheaper wall wart it came with. I had an upgraded power supply (anything that would work with the Squeezebox Touch I had at the time would suffice and I had a couple of power supplies, one from Channel Islands Audio) I remember listening to a bunch of songs via the 2-channel analog input of the SP1.7 vs. taking the SACD playing in the Oppo and outputting 24/88.2 PCM and going into the BDA-1 and upconverting it to 24/176.4. 

One of the first songs I tried was 'Down to the River to Pray' by Alison Krauss from the 'O Brother Were Art Thou' soundtrack on SACD.  I was surprised that I easily preferred going into the Bryston BDA-1 DAC.  Then of course I though about the whole process.  Yes my player had mods but it still started with the same analog output stages which obviously were not to the level of the SP1.7 and then of course not nearly to the level of the BDA-1 and not to the level of the Digital to Analog conversion of the BDA-1.

So that's why I indicated about music vs. movies priority.  Digital technology changes more rapidly and a good DAC would more than likely do better for music and a more modern processor for movies.  Since at the time I had the main system in the old house, I did not finish my basement for almost 9 years after I moved in.  So I had an integrated AV system (and had the basement been finished early on, I likely would have just had a 2-channel system upstairs and a home theater downstairs in the basement) and moved on to the 2-channel preamp with HT Bypass to get the best out of music and movies for what I had.