AVA ultra valve

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pelliott321

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AVA ultra valve
« on: 21 Dec 2010, 03:30 pm »
I have Maggy IIIa's and thinking about actively tri-amping.  Right now I am am using a SS amp for bass panel and a 50 watt KT77 push pull amp for the mid and ribbon using custom passive xover.
I am wondering if the ultravalve can handle driving the 2 ohm ribbon (maybe with a 1 ohm resistor in series).
yes those are a pair of subs lurking in the back

   

avahifi

Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #1 on: 21 Dec 2010, 04:54 pm »
Unfortunately, the Ultravalve vacuum tube amplifier will not be a good choice for your 2 ohm loudspeaker application.  It has 16 ohm, 8 ohm, and 4 ohm speaker output taps useful for almost all loudspeaker designs, but not a 2 ohm output tap.  The speaker load your are using would provide a voltage divider across the output and cut its available power effectively in half due to the impedance mis-match.

For your application, we would strongly recommend our Ultra+ Double 550 amplifier running the speakers full range.  It is a simple and highly effective combination eliminating a whole lot of unnecessary "moving parts" from your system and will get the very best out of your Maggies.

Some of my Magnapan customers may want to comment about this.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Brett Buck

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #2 on: 21 Dec 2010, 05:16 pm »
I have Maggy IIIa's and thinking about actively tri-amping.  Right now I am am using a SS amp for bass panel and a 50 watt KT77 push pull amp for the mid and ribbon using custom passive xover.
I am wondering if the ultravalve can handle driving the 2 ohm ribbon (maybe with a

  I am not in the least bit interested in a system like this for myself, but can someone explain to me how the levels of the different power amps are matched so you don't screw up the speaker's frequency response in a setup like this?  I would expect to get random balance between the various drivers depending on how much the actual gain and the actual power factors of the two (or three) systems. That's certainly what seemed to happen in all the systems like this I have listened to.

     Brett

turkey

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #3 on: 21 Dec 2010, 05:45 pm »
  I am not in the least bit interested in a system like this for myself, but can someone explain to me how the levels of the different power amps are matched so you don't screw up the speaker's frequency response in a setup like this?  I would expect to get random balance between the various drivers depending on how much the actual gain and the actual power factors of the two (or three) systems. That's certainly what seemed to happen in all the systems like this I have listened to.

     Brett

You would have to measure the response in the room and adjust it back to where it's supposed to be. In other words, you're re-engineering the speakers and assuming you can at least as good a job as the people at Magnapan did the first time around.


martyo

Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #4 on: 21 Dec 2010, 05:47 pm »
With an active crossover, rather than the typical passive that is usually incorporated into the speaker. Jim Salk for example, offers the DEQX outboard active as on upgrade option on his top of the line speaks. 

DustyC

Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #5 on: 21 Dec 2010, 07:36 pm »
Whatever amp you decide to use on the ribbons be sure to verify that it has NO power up thumps or burps. That ribbon is pretty delicate (fused or not).

Most active crossovers have level controls to accommodate the different voltage requirements for full power output for amps (i.e. one amp needs .775 volt for full output, another might need 1.50 volts for full output). Often these level controls are adjusted to suit user preference and may not be "measurably" correct.

I think active biamping on Maggies is a worthwhile endeavor. A tube amp on the ribbon and midrange can make for some pretty sweet sounds. :)

Minn Mark

Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #6 on: 21 Dec 2010, 09:01 pm »
pelliott321,

I'm using an AVA Insight 440H bi-wired to Maggies 3.6R's. 13 x 7 x 25 room.  The sound is fabulous. Also an AVA Insight pre-amp; the sound is not dry, just exceptionally detailed and airy, with plenty of bass w/o subwoofers; I've been curious to see what tubes would do in my system, but I'm pretty satisfied the way it sits (horns, strings, esp CELLO !!!, glorious, also rock, jazz, piano, you name it-vocals are killer: Crosby, Stills and Nash, Diana Krall-she's in the room!).

Mark

pelliott321

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #7 on: 21 Dec 2010, 09:04 pm »
thanks for the responses
I am biamping now just not actively. my TAD-60 (KT-77 push pull) is having no problems driving the mis/ribbon part, nominal impedance is probably between 3 and 4 ohms, but with the passive xover between amp and drivers. I can go 100dbs cleanly on the RATSHACK meter.
In going active I was hoping to put the ultravalve in for mids and the TAD-60 for the ribbons or vice-versa ,which ever sounds best.
I have driven the MagIIIa's just with the TAD-60 in pentode mode and it does fine for laid back listening, I do not dare to push very hard because I do not want to clip the ribbons.
I know the ultra is very special, I heard it at Capital Fest driving the Salk's, it was the best sound at the show even in a acoustically terrible room.

pelliott321

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #8 on: 21 Dec 2010, 09:09 pm »
thanks Mark.
I am not doing this to try to get better sound, just to learn about active xovers
Make no mistake I am loving the sound just as it is.
I have driven the maggys with a modest class d audio amp and it sounds very good, not very involving but very good.
I put premium parts in the xover 14 ga air inductors, clarity caps, etc but I know this is still a limitation.
Just something to do thats better than drugs, not cheaper but better     

OldCoder

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #9 on: 21 Dec 2010, 11:11 pm »
Frank (as usual) is right.

While your tubes may sound nice, they cannot exert anything
near the control of an ULTRA DOUBLE 550 on your Maggies.

Maggies love GOBS of clean power, and there are few amps at any price
that do that as well as Frank's, especially the ULTRA DOUBLE 550.

Brett Buck

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #10 on: 21 Dec 2010, 11:49 pm »
With an active crossover, rather than the typical passive that is usually incorporated into the speaker. Jim Salk for example, offers the DEQX outboard active as on upgrade option on his top of the line speaks.

  How do you know when you have it back to flat?  Just by listening? How do you handle the impedance match changing between the amp and the speaker with two (or even three) different amps in play?

    Brett

pelliott321

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #11 on: 23 Dec 2010, 02:18 pm »
Anything I do to my system I run graphs with TrueRTA and a Behringer mic with my laptop. This is how I balance the different amps and drivers. It even helps with room placement, to even out the bass nodes. I think this is a valuable tool that does not cost much.
I recently started working with REW I got from:
www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq
I am still trying to get my head around it.  I was able to detect that I needed to reverse the phase of my subs for a better graph.  Can I hear the difference? I cant say now. Still evaluating, but I am more flat now at 40-50hz where I transition to the bass panels on my maggy IIIa's.   

trebejo

Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #12 on: 23 Dec 2010, 08:45 pm »
I suppose you already know this, but please note that the Ultra 550 has tubes in it! "Only" in the input stage, of course.

Let me encourage you to give that a try. I own both the 550 and the U70 (equivalent to the Ultravalve), which I use to drive a pair of Ohm 2000; not as harsh a load as what you have there, but still . Initially, I preferred the U70 without much hesitation. This summer, the heat made me reconsider! So for about three months, I ran the 550 and I can honestly say that I was not missing the U70 much at all; it went from being a heat-induced compromise to a tradeoff (more power is nice).

They are close, much closer than any solid state amp has a right to make it. In particular, smooth with no hint of harshness.

Frank's recommendation is a typical example of his honesty. Since you are already using a push-pull kt77 tube amp, it's probably the case that the Ultravalve would actually work as a straight replacement for it (also push-pull, also kt77 power tubes, etc.). Sounds like an easy sale! But the 550 should be the better instrument for this setup. It costs a bit more than the Ultravalve, but you still save money compared to using the kind of active crossover that is up to par with AVA gear (e.g. a nice Marchand tube crossover). Finally there is the issue of getting the amps to work well together. Frank's amps are very fast, the bass amp that you are using will probably be less so. The IIIa crosses over at 300 hz, which includes a LOT of musical content, so you'll need to make sure that that bass panel is getting a darned good amp as well.

One obvious experiment is to get the 550 and keep it as the bass amp if you decide to bi/triamp after all.  8)

When you test the frequency response in your current setup, see what you get in the uppermost octave, 10-20 khz. That's where the problem with the low impedance is supposed to show up.

pelliott321

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #13 on: 3 Jan 2011, 04:07 pm »
trebejo
thanks for your suggestions
I do get a bit of roll off (measured), (maybe a couple of db's) between 10k and 20k. It certainly sound good. Not at all hot which is fine with me.  I'm 65 and I have a hard time hearing 14k.  I can accurately identify when 16k is playing but not really hearing music, just a feeling that something is there.
I attribute some of this loss to the behringer mic and the M-Audio mobile-pre/laptop sound system.
I can always add a one ohm resistor (Mundorf or duneland) if there is a problem. There is a .75 ohm resistor in series with the ribbon in its passive xover and the ribbon's impedance is almost a pure resistive 1.9-2ohms.
The mids are 3ohms plus a 1.5ohm resistor in series. 
I have been a long time owner of a modified ST70(not AVA mods) and I heard the Ultravalve at CaptitalFest last summer and I think its a magic amp.  I am leaning toward taking advantage of the sale because I know it will become a classic and I will always have a use for it.

adydula

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #14 on: 4 Jan 2011, 02:32 am »
The Ultravalve will be a classic amp over time, its AWESOME right now!. It certaintly has changed my enjoyment wonderfully....what more can you do with this design?

All the best
Alex
 :D :D

pelliott321

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #15 on: 4 Jan 2011, 07:40 pm »
I saw the price increase notice so I ordered the Ultra
Frank said at least 30day lead time, which is fine

pelliott321

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Re: AVA ultra valve
« Reply #16 on: 4 Jan 2011, 08:40 pm »
I thought so but just wanted to make sure since it did not match the docs
thanks