[jg123]

been lurking for awhile and looking for opinions on next system. a couple years ago my old technics  receiver was giving me problems and had been repaired a couple of times so it was time to replace. i had cerwin Vega at12s . i wound up buying a yamaha rxv2700 and orb satellite speakers and sub. to make a long story short i missed my floor standers even though the quality wasn't there. im now getting a chance as im about to set up a second system. it will be strictly 2 channel 2 speaker system with no sub. im leaning towards an integrated amp and single cd player.my plan was to pick up the amp now then begin my search for speakers. have looked at the nad and a couple others and would like something with at least 100 per channel. any opinions would be  appreciated

[David C]

speakers first..... electronics second

[srb]

speakers first..... electronics second

While that is generally good advice, if jg123 gets an integrated amp with "at least 100W per channel", beyond some of the more inefficient and power hungry models, there are literally hundreds of speaker choices that will mate with it.
 
Steve

[JLM]

I agree with David.  As the only transducer (something that changes energy from one form to another) in the proposed system the overall sound will be more a function of the speakers than anything else.  (Don't neglect the 2nd biggest factor, the room.)

Decide on your listening priorities (types of music, aspects of playback you enjoy the most, etc.) factor in room size, system budget, and any domestic acceptance factors.  Figure spending 1/3rd on speakers, 1/4th on CDP, 1/4th on integrated amp, and the rest for rack and cabling.  For floorstanders look out for small rooms and close neighbors.  And consider DIY (pre cut kits are even available to help with shipping costs).  Note that most of us at AC mail order as the number of affordable options from bricks and mortar retail outlets are getting very slim.

Shop with someone you like, trust, and shares similar musical tastes.  See what they recommend for speakers and then integrateds.  Audition lots of stuff (but only a few at a time).  Do your homework (this is a good place to start).  And try to attend local audio gatherings.

A 100 wpc amp would be too much for highly efficient speakers, yet even a small but flabby tube amp could mate poorly with speakers having deep bass.  Amp/speaker synergy is a very important consideration.

BTW I've owned and liked NAD.  Not flashy or heavy built and a can tend to be a bit on the warm side (safe for poorly recorded music or cheaper/rough associated equipment that can easily be found at lower prices).

With all the interest in music servers and you obviously being a computer user, you should consider some sort of computer solution (can be cheaper).  If you have an iPod, look at Peachtree Audio.  They offer integrated amps with quality built-in DACs and even a "digital direct" port for iPods (you'll get sound from them like never before).  Using a computer (or a Squeeze Box) you can also get internet audio streaming.

[FullRangeMan]

Hi,
My personal preference are Bryston B100 integrated or Odyssey Cyclops integrated(passive) if you listen Stereo.
No FM reveiver, which you could listen on the web, as RadioTime.com etc.

For speakers, the Omega 8inches Alnico are exquisite music, but not huge power handling, if you need hi SPl and power handling I would like the Klipsch RF-83, Klipschs are great with tube amps.

You can not go wrong with the B100 and the Omega 8inches Alnico, Bryston and Odyssey amps have 20 years warranty.
Of course there are others fine brands on the market I not mention.
Good Luck, Gustavo

>Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a cat or dog from the street. On the streets pets live only two years average.

[bummrush]

I dont understand efficiency 100% but my speakers are 6 ohms 91db sensitive i use a 100 watt amp and my speakers can use every bit of that power, i quess what i.m saying is dont skimp on power.

[srb]

I dont understand efficiency 100% but my speakers are 6 ohms 91db sensitive i use a 100 watt amp and my speakers can use every bit of that power, i quess what i.m saying is dont skimp on power.

The reference made was probably to a 100W being used with very high efficiency speakers perhaps in the 97dB to 103dB range.
 
Steve

[jg123]

room is 12x 24 with 13 ft high cathedral ceiling but is set up so i will be listening 8-10 ft away . will be going for reference type system this time not going to skimp as i waited a long time to do this. carpet was just ordered for room will be installed after the holidays then the fun begins.as i said no receiver need as i will still have my Yamaha hooked up in other room . i started  listening to a few of the speakers i might be interested in and have a few more to go . i just thought i would get the amp and cd player and throw  on a spare set of speakers so i dont rush in making a decision on the speakers. i need the cd player now as almost all my music is on disc but that will be the next project to download it all into the computer and ipod after this is done. i will make sure the amp i buy will have enough power to feed whatever i buy. thanks and any other suggestion will help

[JLM]

In a room the size of your's I'd guess that you'll lose 1-2 dB from the rated efficiency (net room loss, distance loss, and 2 channel gain).

Most accept that live music gets up to 105 dB peaks and rock reaches 110 dB.

Using bummrush's example (91 dB/w/m at 6 ohms) I'll convert to 90 dB/w/m at 8 ohms (where most amps are rated).  So in your room he'd need 100 watts (20 dB of gain) to reach 110 dB at your chair.


Note that manufacturers (especially those of cheaper stuff) pad their specifications in various ways.  OTOH power (watts) versus sound pressure levels (spls) scale is logarithmic, so it takes 10 times the watts to double the spl (add 10 dB). 


Examples:

Low efficiency speakers, say 82 dB/w/m would need 28 dB of gain (2 channels of 650 watts) to rock in jg123's room.

High efficiency speakers, say 97 dB/w/m would need 13 dB of gain (2 channels of 20 watts) to rock in the same room.


This is why you must consider what speakers you'll be using before buying the integrated amp.

[jg123]

spoke to a couple of audio stores yesterday in order to set up some listening after the holidays and both said the same as the guys who said pick the speakers 1st then the power so thats the plan.  the thiels i want to hear are powered by bryston the dynaudio is powered by nad  and i havent spoken to the place that has the kef reference yet but i believe they carry nad also. once i chose the speaker ill buy the amp and player then once i recover from that ill go after those speakers. i would really like to hear some of jim salk's speakers but no one in my area has what i would be interested in and the thought of buying speakers in that range without hearing them doesnt sit well with me as i have eliminated some other brands after listening to them

[mix4fix]

What's the budget???

Many integrateds out there; at a certain budget you can get seperates.

[denjo]

There are many great integrated amplifiers to choose from. Here are a few suggestions:

1. LFD LE3, LE4 or NCSE (very musical sounding, spartan features)
2. Bryston B100 (as was suggested; you can add DAC and/or phono)
3. NaimUniti (all-in-one integrated with Naim's PRAT)
4. Rega Elicit or Mira
5. AVA Integrated
6. Accuphase (pricey but built like a tank)
7. Odyssey
8. NAD (as mentioned above)

[mix4fix]

Many integrateds out there; at a certain budget you can get seperates.

There are many great integrated amplifiers to choose from. Here are a few suggestions:

1. LFD LE3, LE4 or NCSE (very musical sounding, spartan features)
2. Bryston B100 (as was suggested; you can add DAC and/or phono)
3. NaimUniti (all-in-one integrated with Naim's PRAT)
4. Rega Elicit or Mira
5. AVA Integrated
6. Accuphase (pricey but built like a tank)
7. Odyssey
8. NAD (as mentioned above)

Many of those are $3K -$4k; $2K get's you Parasound Halo seperates (smaller amp/smaller pre-amp and the ability to upgrade like upgrade to a bigger amp when ready).

[JLM]

ecoustics.com has a decent compulation of reviews.

Specifically check out goodsound, affordable, tone, stereomojo, enjoy the music, dagogo, 6 moons, and positive feedback review sites.  Lots of homework here.  Try to read between the lines and associate reviewer opinions with gear you know.  Most reviewers are available via e-mail.

Typical non-exotic current audiophile brands that I might recommend include Arcam, Bel Canto, Blue Circle, Bryston, Cambridge Audio, Creek, Jolida, Krell, Linn, Music Hall, Musical Fidelity, NAD, Naim, Nightshade, Odyssey, Redgum, Simaudio, Unison, Virtue, and Vista.

Don't forget to check out cheaper/safer Chinese importers (like Grant Fidelity) and pieces like Jungson JA-88E, Shengya A-17, or Shengya A-216.  These offer quality and value.

[davidrs]

What's the budget???

Will ask again since there is no point making recommendations if they are going to be above or way below what you have in mind.

Therefore, what's your budget for the speakers, since you seem to be moving in that direction first.

Budgeted amounts for the integrated and cdp will also help.

Generally speaking, as per the posts here, folks tend to recommend the speaker first.

I also agree with one of the members that there is not a major downside by choosing an integrated first, in the case you happen upon a deal or fall in love with a particular item.

Two schools of thought (generally speaking). One is on the side of start with your source first, then work downstream (as exemplified by Linn). Second, and more popular, is to start with the speakers (exemplified by Wilson).

Some perspective from you on what "sound" or musical presentation you tend to prefer will help too.

[jg123]

i listen to all music from head banging to kenny g and manilow if thats what my mood is. hoping to spend no more than 2 grand for amp and single player. once i recover from it then on to the speakers. i know there is a huge markup and would like to spend no more than 4 grand but have a feeling it might go a little higher. going to listen to thiel 2.4s psb syncrony and kef reference 205s on a different amp that i heard them on the other day at one of the box stores . i listened to a pair of dynaudio powered by a 150 per channel nad 2 channel amp and they sounded awesome . i also eliminated a couple other brands for the simple reason is that they just sounded ok . ill be patient and look for the right deal on speakers once i decide which will be the ones. as i said i still have the other yamaha receiver with my orbs in the other room and enjoy them but i want to take it to the next level as i have always enjoyed my music

[timlub]

All the info posted has been good.  Speakers first is a good rule of thumb, but in general, if you are buying 86+ sensitivity speakers (90% of the market) and you are not an extreme head banger (loud listener), 100 watts per channel is  more than adequate.  I would shop used and if a deal comes by that you can't pass up.... don't, you can normally re sell used gear at what you pay for it.  As far as an Integrated... The Bryston recommened is solid, I would love to have a Coda and if you are willing to look Chinese, the Dussun V6i, these all are realitively smooth with balls to the walls kind of presentation.  Tim

[davidrs]

At $2K for the amp and cdp, you are going to have a really wide selection of brands and units to choose from on the used market.

At the budget you state, my recommendation would be to stay with an integrated amp.

Adding to the amps that have already been mentioned:

- Creek Destiny

- Exposure

- YBA

$4K for your speakers is going to also put you in a very wide sweet spot within the used market.

You will also be able to get a decent pair if you pursue the purchase through a dealer, and it is nice to see your support for your local dealers.

Since the possibilities are really so wide and deep , I'd recommend revisiting the topic and looking for feedback when you have narrowed your options for each component.

[jg123]

let me ask another question since going to this level is new to me . if i found a pair of speakers that i thought was what i wanted and when demoing them they were powered by amp brand a how much of a difference in sound will there be if i powered them with brand b? thats is with all being equal as far as power . more than likely i will buy the amp new and local in case of problems but would be open to buying speakers either new or hope to find some dealer demos and would travel within reason for the right deal

[davidrs]

if i found a pair of speakers that i thought was what i wanted and when demoing them they were powered by amp brand a how much of a difference in sound will there be if i powered them with brand b?

I am assuming you are doing the a/b comparison at the dealers location (and not between amp a at the dealer and amp b at home).

Ideally (for most) you want the speaker to show what is upstream from it. If it is "good" in this respect, then it will illustrate differences in gear, cabling, recordings, etc.

The pursuit of which, in a way, is one of the core essences of this hobby / obsession / journey.

Will you be able to hear the differences between two amps and the same speakers at your dealers showroom?

That will depend on the amps being compared and how well you've developed your listening skills.

What I have said above is my experience. I also want to point out that there are a number of audiophiles who, based on their experience and what they hear, do not find differences (of significance) between solid state amps.

Which camp you fall into is going to be driven by you.