How important is high-res audio really?

joeriz · « **on:** 20 Dec 2010, 03:26 pm »

I'm wondering what the folks on this forum think about this (Frank included). How important do you think high resolution (i.e. greater than CD quality) audio is? So far, I am fairly underwhelmed by the high res recordings that I own. I suppose it goes without saying that the care taken in the actual recording itself, the mastering, etc. have much more to do with good sound than whether or not the end product is high res or not...in other words: garbage in, garbage out. I've heard some truly stunning music coming from standard 16/44.1 recordings and CD players/DACs. I have yet to hear a "high res" recording that I could swear is any more musical than a well made CD-quality recording. This goes for SACD, DVD-A, and 24/96.

The reason I ask is that I am considering purchasing a new DAC. I am considering one of Frank's newer DACs (among others) that are capable of playing high res files. However, I often see what appear to be good deals on some of his older models that play "only" 16/44.1 (sometimes on his website in the 'used equipment' section). I'm trying to decide if it is worth it to spend the extra $ on one of the newer models. Granted, I'm sure it's possible that the newer models do an even better job with standard res material which is another factor to consider.

What are yoour thoughts/opinions/experiences?

Thanks,
Joe

Ronm1 · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 03:51 pm »

What are u playing Hirez/dvda/sacd on vs redbook??

Minn Mark · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 04:19 pm »

Quote

I have yet to heard a "high res" recording that I could swear is any more musical than a well made CD-quality recording. This goes for SACD, DVD-A, and 24/96.

Looks like you answered your own question.

I listen to lots of vinyl but also use Frank's Insight DAC(no mods or "+"). It sounds great with any transport I use. MP3 files sound like crap ro me. I have no idea whether I could hear any audible improvement in a FLAC or other high-rez file vs CD.

The point is, as Wayner so often makes: can your system get "outta the way" and let you enjoy the music and the performance?

Happy Holidays,

Mark

joeriz · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 04:30 pm »

Quote from: Ronm1 on 20 Dec 2010, 03:51 pm

What are u playing Hirez/dvda/sacd on vs redbook??

I use a Denon DVD-2910 for SACD and DVD-A discs. However, I mainly use a Slim Devices Transporter for most of my listening these days which supports a multitude of file formats and bit rates/sample rates.

Quote

The point is, as Wayner so often makes: can your system get "outta the way" and let you enjoy the music and the performance?

Yes. I'm just curious as to other's experineces/opinions as it pertains to a possible future purchase.

Joe

eclein · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 04:37 pm »

I can hear the difference between MP3 and Wav or Flac, but the few discs I have that are hi-rez, hybrid, DVD-A don't shine that much brighter than a good quality recording on CD.

It also seems to me that about 98% of the music I listen to is not offered in a hi-rez format and the artists that are in many instances are totally obscure to me. I have had my DAC for about 8 months and honestly don't know if it can play real hi-rez files, I think it can but its not an issue that has come up so I never really had to confirm that it can. Maybe in 5 years when everything is digital and no physical media exists anymore will real hi-rez come into its own.

Wayner · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 04:43 pm »

The new Wolfson chip-set offers the higher res capabilities, so why not offer it. The new chip-set lends itself to the future, regardless if one can hear the differences between the different resolution formats.

The real question is how low can one go before the effects are audible and the performance downgraded. I have the lastest, greatest SS DAC version, the Insight+ and it can make a standard 44.1/16 sound pretty damn good. This is accomplished not only by the chip-set, but excellent design of power supplies, filters, etc. that make the listening experience removed from the equipment. As Minn Mark stated, you forget about the equipment and start getting emotionally involved with the music. This is what the equipment is suppose to do.

Wayner

srb · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 04:44 pm »

It is true what you say about quality recordings and uncompressed mastering being the foundation for good sound.

If I were primarily a rock listener, I probably wouldn't see much of a difference, as most of that genre contains instrumentation that originates as intentionally distorted waveforms through speaker drivers and rock recordings seem to have higher levels of compression. But when you're trying to capture the essence and rich harmonic structure of acoustic instruments recorded directly to microphones, I think there is more of a difference.

I listen to mostly jazz, i.e. a lot of acoustic instruments, and 24/96 files that I have downloaded most of the time do sound better to me compared to the ripped 16/44.1 CD version. Whether it is worth 2X the cost, I can't really say.

As a lot of people point out, their collection is primarily 16/44.1 and they don't mind downsampling what high-res music they do have to 16/44.1. As I do like having a DAC that can play 24/96 for the small percentage I do acquire, I can easily say the same thing about resolutions higher than 24/96. Although there are a number of DACs that can play 24/192 (and beyond), I think 24/96 makes the necessary leap and anything above that is somewhat meaningless to me for music playback.

Steve

Brett Buck · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 04:52 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 20 Dec 2010, 04:43 pm

The new Wolfson chip-set offers the higher res capabilities, so why not offer it. The new chip-set lends itself to the future, regardless if one can hear the differences between the different resolution formats.

The real question is how low can one go before the effects are audible and the performance downgraded. I have the lastest, greatest SS DAC version, the Insight+ and it can make a standard 44.1/16 sound pretty damn good. This is accomplished not only by the chip-set, but excellent design of power supplies, filters, etc. that make the listening experience removed from the equipment. As Minn Mark stated, you forget about the equipment and start getting emotionally involved with the music. This is what the equipment is suppose to do.

The biggest problem I have found with high resolution is not technical, but artistic. For whatever reason, the vast majority of high-resolution stuff I have found is not worth listening to!

Brett

David C · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 04:53 pm »

I am getting older and you know what happens to your hearing...... But hands down the hi res files I have downloaded sound much much better than red book . there are a few recent red books that sound really good but the dynamic range and crispness of the high res sound is wonderful. I have a separate DAC (sorry Frank but could not afford your new one or else I would have bought it). A couple of good hi res I have (all from HD tracks are the new release of Gaucho by Steely Dan and Livingston Taylor. I have gotten to the point where I dont want to buy red books. A couple of excellent recent red books are Taylor Swift, Rosanne Cash the List ..... a must have cd if I ever heard one

turkey · « **Reply #9 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 05:06 pm »

I haven't heard any difference between the "hi rez" and Redbook versions of the same recording.

Then there's this: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195

joeriz · « **Reply #10 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 05:11 pm »

For those that say they have heard a big difference between red book and high res versions of the same recording: Are you sure all else was equal (i.e. same mastering, etc.)? I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference, just want to be sure it's "apples to apples"?

Wayner - yes, I suppose if the latest chips offer the high res capability one might as well offer it. But I'm wondering if the difference in price is worth it as compared to, say, an older AVA Ultra DAC...particularly when upgraded. I realize I'm the only one who can ultimately make that call - again, just looking for others' input.

Joe

srb · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 05:21 pm »

Quote from: joeriz on 20 Dec 2010, 05:11 pm

But I'm wondering if the difference in price is worth it as compared to, say, an older AVA Ultra DAC...particularly when upgraded. I realize I'm the only one who can ultimately make that call - again, just looking for others' input.

According to AVA, their latest Vision DAC with the newest Wolfson 8742 chip (and AVA implementation) sounds better with standard 16/44.1 than their previous DACs, enough so that they discontinued production of more expensive models.

Steve

martyo · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 05:24 pm »

My whole front end is AVA; I use an Ultra DAC right now. My next DAC will have hi-rez capability. Some day I hope to eliminate the transport. There is more and more music available on Hi-rez and the market is growing. Yes we are always at the mercy of the recording engineers, but I still want as much of the information on the disk to make it to the set. You might want to ask this question in another circle. The hi-rez circle here on AudioCircle is full of very knowledgeable and experienced folks, get some more feedback. ted_b, the facilitator, is one of the most knowledgable guys you'll find ANYWHERE on the subject.

Ronm1 · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 08:17 pm »

Quote from: joeriz on 20 Dec 2010, 05:11 pm

For those that say they have heard a big difference between red book and high res versions of the same recording: Are you sure all else was equal (i.e. same mastering, etc.)? I'm not saying you didn't hear a difference, just want to be sure it's "apples to apples"?

This makes absolutely no sense to me. You want a remastering to take advantage of the hirez formats. To expect the same mastering is lunacy On the other hand if you are trying to determine wether the latest manfacturing process's are an improvement SHM, Bluespec, now there you want the same mastering to judge the process not the mastering. Unless I'm way off base you appear to have a complete misunderstanding of what Hirez is and explains why you have media that has no benefit.

turkey · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 08:22 pm »

Quote from: Ronm1 on 20 Dec 2010, 08:17 pm

This makes absolutely no sense to me. You want a remastering to take advantage of the hirez formats. To expect the same mastering is lunacy

How can you compare the two without them being the same recording (including mastering)?

joeriz · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 08:26 pm »

Quote from: Ronm1 on 20 Dec 2010, 08:17 pm

This makes absolutely no sense to me. You want a remastering to take advantage of the hirez formats. To expect the same mastering is lunacy On the other hand if you are trying to determine wether the latest manfacturing process's are an improvement SHM, Bluespec, now there you want the same mastering to judge the process not the mastering. Unless I'm way off base you appear to have a complete misunderstanding of what Hirez is and explains why you have media that has no benefit.

Umm...you're way off base and not terribly polite to boot. It makes absolutely no sense to compare the same album in CD quality with a copy in high res if the latter has something different done to it (e.g. different mastering). If it has, there would be no way to tell if the differences that you were hearing were due to the mastering or the fact that the high res medium allows one to hear "more" of the original recording. It is analogous to why one should not change more than one component at a time in one's system when trying to evaluate a new component.

Bigfish · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 08:40 pm »

Quote

How important is high-res audio really?

Most of us that make frequent visits to Audio Circle probably have fairly resolving audio systems and are always thinking about how we can make our systems sound better. Hi-Rez music will never be the music file choices of the masses, IMHO. However, as computer audio continues to grow (and it most certainly will) the main means of obtaining new music will be by downloading it. I suspect the amount of hi-rez files available will continue to grow.

Now, I think you are asking if you should spend more for a DAC cable of playing Hi-Rez Files. That is not easy to answer because DAC technology is evolving so quickly. A state of the art Hi-Rez Capable DAC today will likely be old technology in a couple of months. It is like many things in life, when do you decide to take the plunge?

Good Luck,

Ken

pjchappy · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 08:46 pm »

Cool it. If you cannot have a disagreement without being polite, I highly suggest you refrain from posting.

Paul

bummrush · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 08:47 pm »

That is not easy to answer because DAC technology is evolving so quickly
Line from above while this may be true,implementation may matter the most,and also this line about digital tech changing so fast is kind of the pet words to try and hook people into thinking newer is better,,,
Anybody remember when compact disc first came out?????????????

Ronm1 · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Dec 2010, 08:49 pm »

Quote from: joeriz on 20 Dec 2010, 08:26 pm

Umm...you're way off base and not terribly polite to boot. It makes absolutely no sense to compare the same album in CD quality with a copy in high res if the latter has something different done to it (e.g. different mastering). If it has, there would be no way to tell if the differences that you were hearing were due to the mastering or the fact that the high res medium allows one to hear "more" of the original recording. It is analogous to why one should not change more than one component at a time in one's system when trying to evaluate a new component.

Your damn right I'm not polite, its not logical That's the whole point of hirez to master with better resolution not just playback. I understand the concept of apples and apples but here its flawed. I don't get this illogical thinking at all, you need a hirez mastering to get the full benefit or its a moot point, you might as well just play redbook.