Poll

What functions are desired

line amp only
built in MM only phono
built in MC/MM phono with adjustable gain
variable cartridge loading
remote volume control
2 phono inputs of selectable gain

preamp to replace the RM-5

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Roger A. Modjeski

preamp to replace the RM-5
« on: 19 Dec 2010, 06:47 pm »
I've had many requests for a preamp to replace the hard-to-find RM-5. Now that phono is back and at a new level of performance, a new way of dealing with that subject is necessary. As many of you know the RM-4 tube headamp launched Music Reference and we sold an astounding number of these. I still have a few left from the last production run.

However, the RM-1 preamp and RM-2 power supply that ran it were way before their time. This unit had 12 6DJ8/6922 tubes and 6 regulated power supplies. The power supply weighed about 35 pounds and the preamp about 15 so that both together packed was just under the 60 pound UPS weight limit in 1978. A limited quality of these are available from me in a MK II version that sells for $8,000. This preamp has 2 phono inputs with individual resistive and capacitive loading for each. There are 2 high level inputs and 2 tape loops and a processor loop. This was the first commercially available preamp to use the now ubiquitous 6DJ8. There is a paper by me on this tube that was published in Glass Audio some 20 years ago. Here is the link to that article: http://tubeaudiostore.com/suitof6dfora.html

Here are my current thoughts on what a preamp should be: When I make reference to "both" preamps I am referring to the RM-1 and the RM-5 which have many similarities. When I designed the RM-5 I did everything possible to get the RM-1 performance with its 12 tubes into the RM-5 with just 3 and all in one chassis.

The line stage: Both preamps had internally adjustable gain in the line section. This is essential to get low noise performance from systems with high sensitivity speakers. It also allows the volume control to be used in its upper range where it is most linear, has best tracking and is most gradual in adjustment. If your system plays LOUD at 9-10 o'clock you have too much line gain.

The Phono stage: The RM-1 has plenty of gain for MC cartridges. The RM-5 does also in many systems if the power amp is of standard or high gain, the speakers are sensitive (90 dB or better) and the listener listens under 100 dB SPL. If one uses a head amp (thus the RM-4) with either you will have a better match between phono and CD levels on the volume control. Without the headamp, the volume setting for phono will be rather high and the CD rather low. Many modern preamps have this problem, though I would certainly correct this so the volume control is more for how loud you want to listen, not how loud your source is.

For those interested in the numbers a .5 mV cartridge needs 60 dB of phono gain to get close to the average CD. The old standard for phono stages is 40 dB. A good headamp can provide the extra gain and most RM-4s were shipped with this amount of gain.

Given the fact that there are now very good 6922's available (Try out our SLN in the holiday special post). Though I design and wind very nice output transformers I feel a MC input transformer negates much of the virtue of the MC cartridge which is to get the iron out of the system with its Hysteresis problems and energy losses. Even a well designed MC transformer is going to take some of the energy to run the flux up and down in the core (hysteresis)  have winding resistance losses and actual (milli)watt losses.

The extra gain can be supplied by a build-in head amp or the more elegant solution of being integrated into a variable gain phono stage. This will cover all cartridges MC and MM. including those high output MC that live in the in-between land of output and loading.

Line stages need almost no gain at all which is why I made "Pot in A Box" which works fine with low capacitance cables and people who know that the best place to run a volume control is at the top of its range, not the bottom. There are people who believe that its better to have the volume control run low as this gives headroom. This is simply untrue.

However, a modern preamp should address balanced lines and have a balanced output as this is the best way to have all components grounded (for safety) and avoid ground loops and other noise sources. Of course an unbalanced output is simple to provide as well as an absolute phase switch (as in the RM-1)

Tape loops are no longer necessary which simplifies the signal path. The electronics for the absolute phase switch are already there with the balanced line amp and this only adds one switch in the path. All switches are gold plated as in both the RM-1 and RM-5. We have very good panel mount jacks (we didn't then) which will be employed throughout.

Your comments and votes will be appreciated.



Clio09

Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #1 on: 21 Dec 2010, 05:14 am »
I am in a dilemma right now regarding a full function preamp. I have enjoyed passive preamps for quite some time and use a couple now with my RM-10 MkII. However, I would really like to simplify things by combining the phono stage within the line stage. The options that are affordable to me are active full function linestages that in addition to the phono gain, have at least 15db gain in the line. I'd really like to eliminate the line gain if possible and having that be completely passive would be even better.

I run MM only and require some way to adjust balance. I like dual volume versus the single volume and balance controls. Also prefer stepped attenuators but can easily live with pots. I like the idea of balanced outputs, but not going to be much use with my RM-10. I've been looking for used Music Reference preamp/phono stages but lately haven't seen any come up. Maybe an RM-4 is an option. What is the price?

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #2 on: 21 Dec 2010, 06:30 am »
the RM-4+ is a very reasonable $950. I can add two volume controls for $100 and a high level input for another $75. There are only a few units left and when these are gone whatever replaces them will be much more expensive.

The volume control is at the output so it is in essence a phono stage with a passive line stage. It has 36 db of gain which is enough for most systems. Most line stages add too much gain anyway.

If you are using dual pots to get good centering stepped attenuators will not give you fine enough adjustment. I find I need to get within 1/2 dB to get good central image. Therefore, smooth pots would be recommended.

I am very keen on imaging ever since I got some speakers that image very well (my ESL). When I want the singer in the center it takes critical balancing. If I had 2 pots to fiddle with I'd not like that. The stereo pots I use have very good tracking. One needs only a few dB of balance control (not the infinitive kind that cut off one channel). Stepped balance pots (detented) often have 2 dB per step which is just ridiculous. The solution to balance problems I use for myself is a smooth pot with very fine adjustment. Once the balance is set I find i can leave it over a wide range of volume settings. In essence we just need a balance trim to make up for any small differences in our audio chain, including speaker placement issues.

GMuffley

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 37
Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #3 on: 21 Dec 2010, 02:31 pm »
OK; here is my "wish list":


Built in MC stage (with separate inputs for MC and MM);

White cathode follower to buffer the main outputs (with 2 main outs);

CLC filtering after the rectifier and choke and capacitor decoupling for each gain stage (no solid state regulation);

Auto-mute;

Passive RIAA.

And, built it for $3K (or less)!!!!

Clio09

Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #4 on: 21 Dec 2010, 05:39 pm »
Roger, I'm sending you an email to further discuss the RM4+. Thanks for the information.

JakeJ

Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #5 on: 21 Dec 2010, 06:33 pm »
While I'm not currently a Music Reference owner I have had enough interest that, when the opportunity is right, I see myself owning a piece or two in the future.

That said here's my wish list:
1) Two phono inputs of adjustable gain (my vote) so that I can have two 'tables connected and change cartridges to either MM or MC and make the necessary adjustments without having to swap cables forcing a power down.  Accordingly I want the gain and loading controls on the front panel, not the back of the preamp.  :nono:

2) Inputs/Outputs (in addition to the above mentioned 2 phono inputs), three line level inputs for CD, Tuner, and Aux/Video, two buffered tape loops, one processor loop (unsure if this need buffering), three sets of outputs and the ability to drive long interconnect runs,

3) Adjustable gain of the line level including the ability to go passive.

4) Remote volume and balance controls plus mute.  This feature is optional as it may compromise sound quality, but I would still require the mute so input selections and phono changes can be done while the unit is hot (directly relates to #1).

5) Absolute black background due to a super low noise floor.

6) Faceplate color choice of silver or black would be nice but not a deal breaker.

7) IEC mains jack.

8) As to pricing I haven't a clue but since I'm asking alot I can only hope it comes in under $5K.

9) Last but not least a kit version.  (Yeah, I know, but it never hurts to ask).

Well, is that a decent wish list for a dream Music Reference full-function preamp?  I figure shoot for the moon and settle for New Jersey.  I don't know what that means but it sounds funny.

pehare

Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #6 on: 21 Dec 2010, 08:36 pm »
is it possible to have a headphone out?  i just bought a like-new RM10 MK2 here & should have it early next week :thumb:

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #7 on: 23 Dec 2010, 12:35 am »
is it possible to have a headphone out?  i just bought a like-new RM10 MK2 here & should have it early next week :thumb:

A preamp rarely has enough power to drive headphones, so a small power amp would have to be included. If a simple IC was suitable that would be easy and add little to the cost. However, dedicated headphone listeners are spending lots of money on headphone amps because they don't like the IC provided in most CD players and preamps that do have a headphone jack.

I have built a few headphone amps based on the 13EM7 tube. I hope to release them soon. I also have a design that uses a 6SN7 for the output tube. Both are transformer coupled to the phones at selectable impedance. Projected price is around $1200. It could also be done sooner and at half the price in plastic. Any takers?

jamesgarvin

Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #8 on: 23 Dec 2010, 06:22 pm »
I would need one balanced and one single ended output, at least one balanced input, and three single ended inputs. I would like a phono stage for both MM and MC, adjustable cartridge loading, home theater pass-through, and a mono switch.

Scottdazzle

Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #9 on: 23 Dec 2010, 11:32 pm »
Roger,

I would like to make several selections in your poll, but could only make one choice.  Can you adjust this?

Scott

muzak

Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #10 on: 2 Feb 2011, 01:28 am »
Awesome- we need a new MR preamp!
I own both an RM-1 and RM-4 and have used an RM-5 in the past.
My wish list:
Best to have separate line stage units and phono stage units. A lot of buyers today are only going to have CD's and wouldn't want the extra expense of the phono stage. You might want to even have two phono stage models, a basic one and an all-out version.
The phono stage should have at least two inputs, I love having two on the RM-1.  Three would be even better...
If you do make a combined unit-have a switch to turn off the phono stage tubes.  I love analog, but practically only use the phono stage 20% of the time and I have to watch 6 tubes in the RM1 cook away....
Either have lots of inputs or make a separate switching box to add more inputs-- I have lots of stuff!

Ralph

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 41
  • College Chemistry Professor, Psychologist
Re: preamp to replace the RM-5
« Reply #11 on: 6 Sep 2011, 11:13 pm »
Dear Roger:

Besides line and phono inputs, I would want a mono switch for listening to mono LP's and CD's, for that matter.

Ralph John Steinberg