BDA-1 and 96k CDs question

Ozi · « **on:** 12 Dec 2010, 06:57 pm »

Hi,

it seems that I have been too long into vinyl and now I'am trying to introduce myself into world of hi-res digital. So, from what I can see, my BDA-1 is able to play 96k (24bit/96K CD), but when I play that kind of CDs via DVD player through coax digital, only 44K led is turned on the BDA-1 faceplate. Is that ok for some other reason, did I misunderstood something or am I just too optimistic? I experiment with Chesky 24/96 CDs.

Thanks,
Oz

srb · « **Reply #1 on:** 12 Dec 2010, 07:16 pm »

The Chesky discs that have 24/96 material are hybrid DVD discs that can be played back on either DVD Audio players (DVD-A) or regular DVD video players. I think most DVD Audio players will output 24/96 via their digital S/PDIF outputs, but many regular DVD video players are limited to 16/48 via their digital S/PDIF outputs.

What DVD player are you using?

Steve

James Tanner · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Dec 2010, 07:54 pm »

Quote from: Ozi on 12 Dec 2010, 06:57 pm

Hi,

it seems that I have been too long into vinyl and now I'am trying to introduce myself into world of hi-res digital. So, from what I can see, my BDA-1 is able to play 96k (24bit/96K CD), but when I play that kind of CDs via DVD player through coax digital, only 44K led is turned on the BDA-1 faceplate. Is that ok for some other reason, did I misunderstood something or am I just too optimistic? I experiment with Chesky 24/96 CDs.

Thanks,
Oz

Hi Oz,

I can guarantee you the BDA-1 is telling you the truth about what is coming out of your player. I must get a call a week from customers that think they have been listening to high reolution material and in fact have not once they hook it up to the BDA-1.

james

Ozi · « **Reply #3 on:** 12 Dec 2010, 08:25 pm »

James and Steve,

thanks!
What Steve says seems to me logical as when I play Pink Floyd Pulse DVD, BDA-1 shows 48K, so from what Steve says, that would be my Sony DVD player maximum sample rate.

Don't worry James, I am pretty much confident in what my BDA-1 tells me, it's just that I thought it's something with media discrepancies or so.

Thank you both for making this clear to me. Will try to find some USB-RCA dig. adaptor, M2Tech Hifice or something similar to play higher res. files from comp. Recommendations are welcome.

Oz

Haemus · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 02:56 pm »

Hi,
new to this forum and for a while reading eulogies about BDA-1 performance. As mentioned in another thread these days sometimes difficult to arrange personal audition of some products (Bryston inclusive). Cannot arrange to audition of BDA-1, so have to rely on impressions of people who own it and noticed marked and audible improvement in using it.
My sources are CD/DVD/DVD-A/SACD from Oppo 983/83 and FLAC inclusive multichannel and hi res from media streamer. I have Onkyo 5007, and SP2 as well. My question is how audible would be eventual inclusion of BDA-1 in the chain.
Recently checked my hearing perception on a link (mosquitonoise something), and was a bit saddened it goes up to only 12kHz, but that is what mature age did. In spite of that far from perfect score, I was able to appreciate audibly a pair of EB1i in my system, as 'night and day' improvement.
What could expect from BDA-1 inclusion, as compared to without it?

Ronm1 · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 03:08 pm »

Quote from: srb on 12 Dec 2010, 07:16 pm

I think most DVD Audio players will output 24/96 via their digital S/PDIF outputs, but many regular DVD video players are limited to 16/48 via their digital S/PDIF outputs.

Steve

I disagree, I would expect the opposite, anything above 16/48 via their digital S/PDIF will be the exception, whether a dvda player or not.

srb · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 04:39 pm »

To clarify, most DVD-A discs have copy protection which prevents high resolution output via S/PDIF from any player. Discs that don't have copy protection, like the Chesky DADs, can output 24/96 via S/PDIF depending on the player's specific hardware and software implementation.

While some players will output non-copy protected 24/96 content via S/PDIF, some will truncate 24bit to 16bit and some will only ouput 16/48 maximum.

Universal players are more likely to have 24/96 S/PDIF capability for non-protected content.

Steve

James Tanner · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 04:48 pm »

Hi Steve

I must get one call a week from customers that purchase the BDA DAC and are wondering why it only indicates 44.1 on the front panel even though they are playing a high resolution file on their DVD player. I really think many people assume they are listening to hi-res files and in fact they are not.

James

srb · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 05:04 pm »

Quote from: James Tanner on 21 Dec 2010, 04:48 pm

I must get one call a week from customers that purchase the BDA DAC and are wondering why it only indicates 44.1 on the front panel even though they are playing a high resolution file on their DVD player. I really think many people assume they are listening to hi-res files and in fact they are not.

Further adding confusion would be the players that downsample 24bit to 16bit while leaving the sampling frequency unaltered. These players would send a 16/96 signal to the DAC.

In that case, the DAC would still indicate a 96KHz sample rate even though the bit depth was downsampled to 16bit. Another reason why computer audio and components like the BDP-1 will likely be the future of higher resolution audio for audiophiles.

Steve

Napalm · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 02:28 am »

Quote from: Haemus on 21 Dec 2010, 02:56 pm

Recently checked my hearing perception on a link (mosquitonoise something), and was a bit saddened it goes up to only 12kHz, but that is what mature age did.

Make sure you're testing it properly. This is what a -6dB 16 kHz sine signal looks like when sampled at 16bit/44.1kHz:

Does it look sine to you? Guess not, and that's because the sampling is too coarse.

Here it is, same 16kHz sine wave sampled at 24/192:

So now you'll know why you want the BDA-1/BDP-1 combo

Now seriously, before deciding that you can hear or not 16 kHz, make sure that the sound is actually produced in your room and it has the required SPL. You'd be amazed how many systems will produce it severely subdued, distorted or not at all.

Nap.

Napalm · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 02:51 am »

More pics. What you have is 16kHz sine wave sampled at 16/44.1, 24/96 and 24/192. The last one is zoomed a little bit more so the sampling points become distinct.

Nap.

Haemus · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 11:26 am »

I wish it was because of sound quality or SPL, but it was not. Tried both pc speakers, thought of quality and SPL and tried ear buds, alas result was the same. Actually it was not bad, as it was within my age group. Sent a link to my twenty something year old son, and he reported back up to 17kHz. With thirtysh colleague beside me he was hearing what came out of ear buds (in my ears) up to 16kHz. Perhaps there are few lucky enough to have cheated the nature, with excellent hearing perception regardless of age, but seemingly for the rest while age goes upwards, upper frequencies go downwards.
In fact, the site was advertising these sounds as cell phone ring tone for youngsters, not to be heard by their parents, teachers.
You may try for yourself:
http://www.freemosquitoringtones.org/

Actually I mentioned the above in re BDA-1. Is its inclusion in a system providing a subtle improvement, which might be 'too subtle' to be noted by folks mature, or improvement so obvious that is audible to average Joe? What is BDA-1 owners experience?

Napalm · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 12:08 pm »

Haemus, here are the files as downloaded from the site you mentioned, for 16, 8 and 22 kHz:

Basically your computer/iPod whatever will have to produce a clean clear sine wave of 8, 16 and 22 kHz, starting with the samples marked by the dots. It needs a good, precise, low noise DAC and an exceptionally good analog filter after the DAC as to produce sine waves from the crap you see.

My bet is that no one would hear 22kHz for the simple fact that most brick-wall filters in DACs these days are tuned lower, at 20.5 - 21 kHz.

OTOH yes your son hears some signals that you don't, but are you sure what those signals are?

Short of checking with a good mic and an oscilloscope, you cannot tell what the earbuds are producing when the phone plays those files.

Nap.

Haemus · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 12:45 pm »

Thank you Nap,
I would not certainly consider BDA-1 for the sake of being able to hear mosquito tones, as good as the DAC might be for such a task.
From a practical standpoint with BDA-1 in the chain, would I hear a different Led Zeppelin (CD, FLAC and whatnot), as compared with same system without BDA-1.
In fact, never auditioned standalone DAC, got no idea how perceptible it could be, hence my question.

Napalm · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 02:33 pm »

Haemus,

It depends on what your current chain is, and whether you intend to get 24/96 or higher resolution files or just play your existing CDs.

For existing CDs, the improvement would be mostly in perceived "dynamics" of the signal. Most CD players use integrated operational amps as output stages, while the BDA uses discrete components. Opamps tend to sound flat and unexciting compared to their discrete counterparts.

If you want to get into hi-rez files, then in addition to dynamics you'll also get improved "clarity", the sound will be cleaner and clearer.

Not to mention that hi-rez will allow you to access some properly mastered material. James has already posted an example of Diana Krall's "Jingle Bells" track in CD and 26/96 and it was obvious that the CD version was poorly mastered.

Nap.

Napalm · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 03:09 pm »

Quote from: srb on 21 Dec 2010, 04:39 pm

While some players will output non-copy protected 24/96 content via S/PDIF, some will truncate 24bit to 16bit and some will only ouput 16/48 maximum.

I promised myself to never ever buy again any stuff with DRM. Try to sell me a SACD or DVD-audio and see how it works.

Nap.

Haemus · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 03:24 pm »

Sure I'd like as fine resolution as available. Not only CD, which I play not so frequently these days, but nearly defunct DVD-A (I like very much ANATO & The Game, though wouldn't say How The West Was Won is on par soundwise despite on same format), SACD (DSOTM; Dylan; CCR alas only 2ch; even some apocryphal home made WYWH gotten from old treads and rumored to be sourced from master tapes of Alan Parsons), FLAC (Beatles Mono/Stereo/24/Japanese Red vinyl editions), some downloads from 2L.no in 5.1 24/96 and stereo 24/192.
I was so impressed by some FLACs - some as old as piano boogie woogie from late '30s that started listening to stereo again, being hard core multi channel addict for quite a while.
It is my understanding DAC is handling only stereo signal. Is that correct?

Napalm · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 03:25 pm »

Quote from: Haemus on 22 Dec 2010, 03:24 pm

It is my understanding DAC is handling only stereo signal. Is that correct?

The BDA-1 will indeed handle only stereo signal.

Nap.

Haemus · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 08:08 pm »

Nap,
Thank you again. Question to entire Bryston audience - would I hear diffrent Led Zeppelin with BDA-1? Would come as no surprise if some folks in the audience capable to answer might not be even aware of the artists. Can live with it. In a different perspective - would BDA-1 add perceptible value to '50s/'60s/'70s recordings (classical excluded, although having some and enjoying listening to).
Plain answer much appreciated, the less adjectives, the better.

Anonamemouse · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 Dec 2010, 08:55 pm »

Quote from: Haemus on 22 Dec 2010, 08:08 pm

Nap,
Thank you again. Question to entire Bryston audience - would I hear diffrent Led Zeppelin with BDA-1? Would come as no surprise if some folks in the audience capable to answer might not be even aware of the artists. Can live with it. In a different perspective - would BDA-1 add perceptible value to '50s/'60s/'70s recordings (classical excluded, although having some and enjoying listening to).

Unless you already own a very expensive CD player, the answer is yes.