[DSK]

Got it, veeeery subtle, something you would miss if it was not pointed out.

God i like good recordings, and mine is the DVD in PCM stero track 5.

As to the sound of the GK1, many years ago I listened to an Acoustic Research LS-7 valve pre and when I fired my beta up, it immediately reminded me of that listening session 7 years ago.  As I never had the redies to buy the LS-7 (probably the best pre I have heard and none here in Darwin), I would love to see if someone could put the 2 side by side for a comparison.

*IF* I remember correctly, in an earlier post (pre GK-1 release), Darl compared the GK-1 favourably to the ML1, ML28, Audio Research Ref-1 and others. I haven't heard any of these, or the LS7, but I *can* tell you that my GK-1 is so much better than my US$3500 BAT VK-30 (NOS tubes) that my non-audiophile wife made several positive comments within about 10 seconds of listening. The GK-1 wasn't even burned in yet.
I haven't identified a single area in which the GK-1 doesn't surpass the BAT .....and the BAT is a pretty good unit !!

The GK-1 gets me so much closer to the music that I am unaware of the "system" and more easily drawn into the emotion of the performance. Even with the Plinius SA100/3 only switched to class B yesterday, I enjoyed Dianna Krall's Live in Paris and the Buena Vista Social Club like I never have before .....so much more human, organic, analog....

Several people have mentioned the bass, all positive except for one or two people during the road trip. My suspicion is that it was particular to the way the road trip GK-1 was assembled/wired and not actually due to the GK-1 design itself. I believe the wiring fell apart during the road trip and the unit was subsequently re-wired. I would be very interested to hear whether it still suffers a bass problem.

I have noticed that I get deeper bass (did not expect this) and much more bass detail than I did with the BAT. In addition, the GK-1 is much more dynamic and I believe this goes a long way to drawing the listener into the performance.

Sorry, I'll stop gushing now ....until my next post anyway      

Cheers,
Darren.

[blizzard]

Hi Darren,
  Not only does it make the music sound great.  But, for a hybrid preamp (or a solid state pre for that matter), this thing is dead quiet.  I am really amazed at how dark a backround it has.
             Steve

[bubba966]

Hi Larry,

Hell Freezes Over, CD 20642 47252, Track 6, third bar after the acoustic introduction, drums only, there is a second drum audible at the close of each musical phrase.

I can hear it quite clearly on my system;  Morel/Vifa XT25 tweeter, AKSA Nirvana 100W, GK-1 Stage 1, CDP770 Sony player (pretty old now, laser tracking falling over a lot).

The last drum beat of each bar after the third bar contains this second drum sound.  It's a rising tone, too, very reminiscent of tonal languages.  When you hear it, it's quite a revelation.

Yes, it is the Hell Freezes Over CD, and it's fantastic sound quality, I can't believe how good it is.  You hear Henley's voice like never before.  He sounds like some one has fitted his left hand with a nasty thumscrew and ever so often they turn it up........  The anguish is palpable!  

Cheers,

Hugh

Wonder if this is in my Hell Freezes Over DTS LD? Anyone know if they were recorded at the same time?

[Oz_Audio]

Hey, Oz_Audio, we have the same DVD.

Is it the left drum in the image I posted above from DVD what Hugh and you talking about? I don't see any other drums on the stage and I don't hear any other drums apart from these two.

There is a guy at the rear left of the stage (right side when looking at them on the TV) who has a stack of keyboards.  I think the whole drum beat is coming from him.

Also, I detected a slight change in length of the note for the third drum note.  Indicating a synthesised drum.

It is very clear when only the sub is on.

[Larry]

Sorry to continue on an old subject but it's an unclosed case for me.

Hugh and Oz_Audio both are able to hear the drum in question in their system but I can not hear it on mine. My system seems face a serious challenge here.  

I consider this kind of test as a very useful one to access the music reproduction quality as the object can be properly defined, in particular, when we all are not in the same room, so that it becomes an objective test on overall system performance. The answer is either yes or no. No subjectivism here.

Let me repeat the problem here.

Music in question: at around 0'38", Track 6, EAGLES Hell Freezes Over, CD 20642 47252

- I can hear it quite clearly on my system; Morel/Vifa XT25 tweeter, AKSA Nirvana 100W, GK-1 Stage 1, CDP770 Sony player (pretty old now, laser tracking falling over a lot).

- third bar after the acoustic introduction, drums only, there is a second drum audible at the close of each musical phrase.

- The last drum beat of each bar after the third bar contains this second drum sound.

- Got it, veeeery subtle, something you would miss if it was not pointed out.

- There is a guy at the rear left of the stage (right side when looking at them on the TV) who has a stack of keyboards.  I think the whole drum beat is coming from him.

So, Hugh heard two drums and the second subtle one joined in at the fourth bar of drum beats.

Oz_Audio heard three drums and they all are from the guy behind the keyboard. The third one is subtle.

What I heard is three prominent distinguishing drum beats from the same set of drums from the very first bar of drum beats, which are not behind the keyboard. (see the drum picture. The drums produce three different sounding beats beaten at various spots, marked as 1, 2 and 3)   From the fourth bar, there is something joining in but not drum. From the fouth bar of drum beats at 0'38". (Please note I prevoiusly mentioned 0'48" which is an error) the maracas (marked 1 in the shakers picture) joined in at the close of each musical phrase, which can be heard dominantly from right channel. And at 0'46", the shaker (marked 2 in the shakers picture, behind the unused piano) joined in, which can be heard dominantly from left channel.

So, I don't hear a subtle second/third drum joinning after third bar of drum beats on my system, instead I heard something different.

I have the same pre/amps as Hugh's:

(1) Marantz 63SE reclocked as transport;
(2) Ultra Curve Pro 8024 as digital balancing filter;
(3) Heavily modded ART DI/O working at 2x msampling (88.2kH) as DAC;
(4) GK-1 + Nirvana'ed AKSA 100W;
(5) Speakers: VAF DC-X + REL Strata II;

If I heard a different sounding drum, it's ok. All systems sound differently to certain extent. The problem here is that I don't hear it at all and instead I heard some different instruments, at least what I believe they are.

It's maybe be course of my system and room, maybe of myself, maybe that I have focused on different sound from what Hugh talked about, maybe ... I like to find out why.

Can people who have tried this track throw in your comments to help me to debug? What do you hear, drum, shakers or anything else?

Drums



Shakers

[AKSA]

Larry,

After another listen tonight, the rising note which first appears at 38 seconds into track 6 is repeated at the end of each bar thereafter until the clapping starts.  At 42, 45 and 48 seconds you can hear it clearly;  another note, a little higher in tone, accompanying the bass note.

I do not know precisely what this instrument is;  it could well be a synthesizer, and likely is, but it does sound like a drum.

I hope this is helpful,

Cheers,

Hugh

[Oz_Audio]

Larry,
I do not think these notes come from the guy standing as you indicate.  This is because I believe the bongos do not go down that low.

The three drum beats you describe are the ones, the third has a very subtle rise in frequency.  This is the note Hugh and I can hear and I do not think it is a natural sound, hence my preforance for the synthetic nature of the note.

There is another guy on keyboards on the other side of the stage.  In shadows and the main drum kit is empty.


Mark

[Larry]

Wonder if this is in my Hell Freezes Over DTS LD? Anyone know if they were recorded at the same time?

Do you have the same scenes I posted from DVD-Vidio, which is the same 1994 live session as the CD "Hell Freezes Over"?

By the way, the track on DVD-Audio "Hotel California" is a 1976 studio version.

[Larry]

Larry,

After another listen tonight, the rising note which first appears at 38 seconds into track 6 is repeated at the end of each bar thereafter until the clapping starts.  At 42, 45 and 48 seconds you can hear it clearly;  another note, a little higher in tone, accompanying the bass note.

I do not know precisely what this instrument is;  it could well be a synthesizer, and likely is, but it does sound like a drum.

I hope this is helpful,

Cheers,

Hugh

I can hear the higher drum at the above location, which is higher in pitch. In each bar, there are 4 drum beats. refereing to the drumer picture, first beat, right hand on the right drum (bass note); second short beat, left hand on the left drum then the third short beat, right hand on the left drum (both mid-range note); the fourth beat, right hand on the edge of the left drum (high note). I believe the drum at 0'38", 0'42, 0'45 and 0'48 are the fourth beat in every bar, which is prominent and starts from the first bar, before 0'38. After the fourth beat, there are two very subtle and rapid finger touchs of his left hand on the left drum.

Starting from 0'38, do you hear maraca/shaker joinning in at the close of each bar, which is subtle and clear?

That means starting from 0'38, 4 drums (followed by two rapid soft finger touches) plus shakers should be heard in each bar. If you can confirm this, we are hearing the same elements of sound. If not, we may talk about different things.

[AKSA]

Hi Larry,

After the fourth beat, there are two very subtle and rapid finger touchs of his left hand on the left drum.

This could be it, and explains the higher pitch.

Starting from 0'38, do you hear maraca/shaker joinning in at the close of each bar, which is subtle and clear?

Yes, clearly, no problem!

That means starting from 0'38, 4 drums (followed by two rapid soft finger touches) plus shakers should be heard in each bar. If you can confirm this, we are hearing the same elements of sound. If not, we may talk about different things.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm hearing.  This is subtle stuff, but yes, we hear the same......  You system is great, Sire!!      
Cheers,

Hugh

[Larry]

Larry,
I do not think these notes come from the guy standing as you indicate.  This is because I believe the bongos do not go down that low.

The three drum beats you describe are the ones, the third has a very subtle rise in frequency.  This is the note Hugh and I can hear and I do not think it is a natural sound, hence my preforance for the synthetic nature of the note.

There is another guy on keyboards on the other side of the stage.  In shadows and the main drum kit is empty.


Mark

I had the same thought as that the first bass drum beat did not look like coming from the drum marked as 1. (You may be right that that instrument is not called drum but bongo. Yes, the main drum kit is empty.) But I did  hear it coming from that hit, unless that hit was totally marked out by the bass note from the keyboard as I can only hear one sound at that point of time. His hand movement was also so synchronized with that sound. This is interesting. How was the bass beat produced? Where is the sound produced by the right hand on the right drum, if the first bass beat is not from that hit? Do you hear two notes at this beat, one from the drum and the other from keyboard?

I think the high note was produced by the fourth beat when his right hand hits the edge of the left drum, at about 0:11:48 and 0:11:51 on DVD-Video. It is a bit strange why that hit sounds like that. It looks there is a mechanism on the edge (metal ring) he hits to produce that sound. It sounds like that hit at the ring makes a drumstick strike a wooden fish, or something similar, hiding from the camera.

The guy standing marked 2 was shaking the second shaker.

It is a mystery for me what the guy behind the keyboard doing at the right side of the stage.

Anyway, we can leave this for later but ensure we hear the same thing first.

Can you confirm what I described in above post that starting from 0'38 on CD, 4 drums (followed by two rapid soft finger touches) plus shakers should be heard in each bar?

[Larry]

Thank you Hugh for your reply.

After the fourth beat, there are two very subtle and rapid finger touchs of his left hand on the left drum.

This could be it, and explains the higher pitch.

This is audible at the first bar; not at the second bar; then audible from third bar on.

Starting from 0'38, do you hear maraca/shaker joinning in at the close of each bar, which is subtle and clear?

Yes, clearly, no problem!

This is what joined from fourth bar of drum beats.

That means starting from 0'38, 4 drums (followed by two rapid soft finger touches) plus shakers should be heard in each bar. If you can confirm this, we are hearing the same elements of sound. If not, we may talk about different things.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm hearing.  This is subtle stuff, but yes, we hear the same......  You system is great, Sire!!      
Cheers,

Now we agree we are hearing the same thing.  

I first concentrated on the shakers joined but it's not drum.    Then I concentrated on the fourth high pitch drum beat but it's not subtle.    I see, you were talking about the finger touches after the fourth beat.

The powerful stuff in my great system is yours, (Salute) Sir!

[Larry]

In the following picture, the right hand just did the fourth beat on the edge of the drum, apparently on the metal ring at the edge. (I don't know what it is) The red arrow marks his fingers tapping the drum that produces the beats in question. This is my observation. Mark may not agree on this.

[fred]

For those keeping score, there have now been 24 posts discussing a single note in a particular version of one song.  

Carry on.
 

[AKSA]

Hey Fred,

That's dedication, man!!

Hugh

[Johnny]

Hi Larry et al.

Ok, Ok!
I'm not a great fan of the Eagles, but I'll sing along loudly and badly when Tequila Sunrise comes on the radio when I'm alone in the car
Besides, I'm a great fan of live recordings when the audio quality is good. Especially in the case of  "pop" artists, where the raw talent, genius, and passion, for those who have it, is often "produced out" in the studio.

So, not wanting to drop the cash on this particular disk, I checked out my local library holdings. Of the dozen or so copies held a local branches, one was available. The rest were either Out, Lost, or Stolen. I guess that's why they call it POPular music. On my way home I decided to drop in to the Video store and score the DVD.

I'm gratified to say that the notes in question are clearly audible on my humble system- aging JVC cd player, PS Audio 5.3 preamp (unity gain mode), 55w AKSA, Ruark Templar II loudspeakers, DH Labs Silver Sonic interconnects and speaker cables. (lets not get into silver and teflon here! These cables sound pretty damn good and don't cost an arm and a leg.)

I believe the pair of drums on stage right (left as you watch TV) are Congas. The metal rings tension the drum head via the metal yokes (upside down wishbones) and nuts which can be seen in the video. The drums are tuned by adjusting the nuts to vary the tension on the the drum heads. The metal rings don't contribute to the tone, but a remarkable range of tones can be obtained from such drums by varying the location on the head and part of the hand used to strike the drum. A "rim shot" striking the very edge of the drum head sharply with the finger tips elicits a  sharp metallic tone which decays rapidly. This is the first note by the left hand you have described. (This differs from the rim shot obtained on trap drums (the typical drum kit of jazz/rock/pop bands with cymbals and all) by striking the drum head and its metallic rim simultaneously with the drum sticks.)

The gentler brushing finger taps in the center of the left conga elicit the somewhat lower and more resonant, subtle tones which you have noted. The right hand striking the larger conga would ordinarily produce a deeper resonant tone, but I believe this is masked in the recording by a synthesizer, which is much lower and more powerful than the natural tone of the drum. The synthetic graininess of these deeper notes is barely audible on my system (but very clear in the Grado headphones). I have to admit that the synchronization of the right hand of the conga player and the synth beat is remarkable. Makes me wonder if there was an electronic trigger in the drum connected to the synth. If there is any doubt about the presence of the synth, check out the weird shimmery synth that pans across the sound stage shortly before the vocals start. Can you hear it? Come to think of it, perhaps all  the synth was added after the fact, to augment the congas. It seems unlikely that the original take would have captured this exaggerated pan.

So, anyone been listening to anything else lately?

If you want to hear the full glory of hand drums, check out some (east) Indian Tabla music. Amazing what a pair of small drums and a pair of skilled hands can do. There are some great analogue recordings. Or any project Glenn Valez has been involved with.

Cheers!
Jy

In the following picture, the right hand just did the fourth beat on the edge of the drum, apparently on the metal ring at the edge. (I don't know what it is) The red arrow marks his fingers tapping the drum that produces the beats in question. This is my observation. Mark may not agree on this.

 

[Larry]

I'm gratified to say that the notes in question are clearly audible on my humble system- aging JVC cd player, PS Audio 5.3 preamp (unity gain mode), 55w AKSA, Ruark Templar II loudspeakers, DH Labs Silver Sonic interconnects and speaker cables. (lets not get into silver and teflon here! These cables sound pretty damn good and don't cost an arm and a leg.)

The first level of performance test is to check if the system correctly repoduces all the elements (notes) of music. (not all systems are able to produce all, or in other words, either missing some subtle elements or incorrectly reproduce them, eg. one instrument sounds like another)

The second level would be to check how well the system reproduces music. I am not going to get into this level as the assessment of this type is subjective so that it's very difficult to have sensible discussions over Internet if we cannot hear the same music at the same time. And also one doesn't know how good is the "good" the other one meant.

I believe the pair of drums on stage right (left as you watch TV) are Congas. The metal rings tension the drum head via the metal yokes (upside down wishbones) and nuts which can be seen in the video. The drums are tuned by adjusting the nuts to vary the tension on the the drum heads. The metal rings don't contribute to the tone, but a remarkable range of tones can be obtained from such drums by varying the location on the head and part of the hand used to strike the drum. A "rim shot" striking the very edge of the drum head sharply with the finger tips elicits a  sharp metallic tone which decays rapidly. This is the first note by the left hand you have described. (This differs from the rim shot obtained on trap drums (the typical drum kit of jazz/rock/pop bands with cymbals and all) by striking the drum head and its metallic rim simultaneously with the drum sticks.)

The gentler brushing finger taps in the center of the left conga elicit the somewhat lower and more resonant, subtle tones which you have noted. The right hand striking the larger conga would ordinarily produce a deeper resonant tone, but I believe this is masked in the recording by a synthesizer, which is much lower and more powerful than the natural tone of the drum. The synthetic graininess of these deeper notes is barely audible on my system (but very clear in the Grado headphones). I have to admit that the synchronization of the right hand of the conga player and the synth beat is remarkable. Makes me wonder if there was an electronic trigger in the drum connected to the synth. If there is any doubt about the presence of the synth, check out the weird shimmery synth that pans across the sound stage shortly before the vocals start. Can you hear it? Come to think of it, perhaps all  the synth was added after the fact, to augment the congas. It seems unlikely that the original take would have captured this exaggerated pan.

This is very useful information on this piece of widely used test track. I will note this down and try to understand this. One day I may have a chance to look at a real thing.

The best way is to compare the same live session to the recorded reproduction, but this is not possible. Comparing to the same type of instrument becomes the practical choice.

When I check the piano music, I always compare it to my piano. If the music sounds too far from my piano, it has a high chance that is not recorded or played properly. This is just a rought assessment. When I first bought my piano, all the piano sounded the same to me. I had to ask the piano teacher to listen to it before I decided to buy one. After a year or so, no piano sounds the same to me anymore. My neighbours', my friends' and the one in the Sydney Opera House all sound different to me. The same applies to amplifiers.  

I have the same thought that there may be a triggered synth attached to the drum.

So, anyone been listening to anything else lately?

CD Player Health Test

If you worry about whether your CD player may be aging, there is a good test to make sure your CD player works as it should.

This is an objective test - there is only "yes" or "no" answer.

Tracks 33 to 40, "My Disc - The Sheffield/A2TB Test Disc", The Audiophile Reference Series, Sheffield Lab 10045-2-T.

This is to test the linearity of your CD player, both laser pickup and DAC/OpAmp decoding/sensitivity capability but it does not tell the sonics, which is another story.

Start with T33 and see how far your player can go.

Here I can show a comparative results on my systems.



From here you can see the performance of my CD players. I invested hundreds of dollars to mod the Marantz but it did not solve the intermittent problem at the lowest signal level, Track 40 at -70dB, which may indicate that some details in music may not be correctly reconstructed by this player. So I wasn't satisfied with Marantz and continued to look for a solution. The ART DIO is able to do that.

Having the ART DIO in the system, then, I can look at how to get rid of the hum/noise to tweak my system into another performance level. I think most of the hum/noise in my current system setup is due to EMI so that I am looking at shielding mains to clean up the environments and pay a great attention to wiring layout. (I don't hear the hum and noise for T38/39 as the amp volume levels are different when listening to different tracks.) Getting rid of EMI can, I believe, improve the background darkness and perception of soundstaging.


Grand Overall System Test

This is a very difficult test on the overall performance including electronics, speaker positioning and room accoustics.

Track 7, "The World of the Harp", Marisa Robles, Decca 433869-2.

What to look for:

1) a background noise; (easy)
2) what made that noise; (difficult)
3) how it was made. (more difficult)

If anyone likes to try this track, tell us what you hear.

I have all the information on this noise and I will tell you if anyone gets close to it.  Then people can judge their own system performance from how this sound (noise) can be reproduced. This track has been used by some veterans to fine tune their systems.

Have fun.