[SteveFord]

I know that you have to size these speakers for the size room that you have but has anyone done a side by side comparison of the 1.7s and the 3.6s?
The Absolute Sound's current issue has a section on recommended systems at various price points and what's odd is that they list the 1.7s in two (or three) systems where the price should have included the 3.6s.
Has anyone here done a side by side? 

[AVnerdguy]

I'll volunteer if someone will send me a pair of 3.6s

Seriously, that's a lot of room required. Maybe I can get the local dealer to set them up side by side. I didn't listen to the 3.6 (this time) when I auditioned the 1.7s because I knew it was futile with the room size I have.

[andyr]

I know that you have to size these speakers for the size room that you have but has anyone done a side by side comparison of the 1.7s and the 3.6s?

The Absolute Sound's current issue has a section on recommended systems at various price points and what's odd is that they list the 1.7s in two (or three) systems where the price should have included the 3.6s.
 

Not only size the room but size the amp! 

Are you sure that with the larger (so presumably more expensive!  ) amp the 3.6 needs, the combined price would still have been within the "price point"?

Also, I suggest with all hifi rags - including TAS - they like "the new".  So they will no longer recommend the 3.6 as it's been out 10 years.  The true ribbon is way up on any mylar-based tweeter, IMO - whether it's got round-wire or flat (QR) wire.  So there's no way the 1.7 sounds better than a 3.6. 

Regards,

Andy

[BaMorin]

Not only size the room but size the amp! 

Are you sure that with the larger (so presumably more expensive!  ) amp the 3.6 needs, the combined price would still have been within the "price point"?

Also, I suggest with all hifi rags - including TAS - they like "the new".  So they will no longer recommend the 3.6 as it's been out 10 years.  The true ribbon is way up on any mylar-based tweeter, IMO - whether it's got round-wire or flat (QR) wire.  So there's no way the 1.7 sounds better than a 3.6. 

Regards,

Andy

as long as the watts are clean,(and real) the 3.6's will run on a smaller amp than many think.  My GAS Grandson will push mine in the mid 90's.  They do prefer the Ampzilla's though.

[cityjim]

as long as the watts are clean,(and real) the 3.6's will run on a smaller amp than many think.  My GAS Grandson will push mine in the mid 90's.  They do prefer the Ampzilla's though.

 Finally someone that knows what they are talking about. All I read about on here is we all need 1200 watt amps to begin to hear sound coming from the panels:duh:. Most people don't know how loud 90dba really is. That's loud enough to have your wife or GF come into the room and start complaining. Or if you live in an apartment someone will call the COP's on you. Especially if you have a sub going.

 Magnepan recommends 50-250 watts for the 20.1R's. I know because I own them and it's in my manual. I've borrowed a 450 watt per Mark Levinson amp that caused blue electrical arcing in the fuse holders. You could smell something burning. Then I turned the volume up a bit and saw the spark show. The speakers were moving on and across the marble floor. That amp was not even close to being clipped or pushed hard. Volume knob was at 9 o'clock on the preamp. Clearly the 20.1R's don't need 450 clean watts. And 90% of guys here say you need a thousand watts to run them. I don't get it......

cityjim

[*Scotty*]

I have owned the SMG's and the MGIII's and in my experience the  amplifier's quality is more important than the quantity once a bare  minimum amount of watts has been exceeded. This was demonstrated  conclusively to me back in the late 80s when I was a beta tester for  Superphon.
 I had the beta version of the SA 120 in the house. It was rated at 60watts/ch into 8ohms and 120watts/ch at 4 ohms.  It was facing off against two contenders, a Musical Concepts modded  Hafler DH 220 at a 180watts/ch and a DH 500 at 300 watts/ch..
 Long  story short both Haflers got their butts handed to them on a platter.  They were both dynamically dead compared the the Superphon amp and they  sounded like they actually had less power particularly in the bass  regions. The Superphon amp grabbed the panels and generated bass slam  that the other two amps didn't even know existed.
 It wouldn't be hard to  conclude that a large amount of power was required to drive the Maggies  if all you had to drive them with were inferior amplifiers.
Scotty

[Minn Mark]

I auditioned the 3.6 R's, and took the advice from magnepan's website to "buy the most resolution I could afford" so I bought 3.6R's. My room is 13 x 25 ft with 7 ft ceiling (essentially 1/4 of our basement, walled off to make a room.). I use one AVA Insight 440H amp. I bi-wire with Parts Express speakser cable (14 AWG I think). I am very happy with the sound and do not think I bought too much speaker, or that I dont have enough amp.
Happy listening,

Mark

[rollo]

  Well you certainly have the desirable room size for them. A rectangular room suits them best. Have you experimented with the tweeters on the "inside' and "outside" ?
   Makes a huge difference if the sidewallls are close. Setting the speakers 1/3 of the way into the room has alays worked well for Maggies. you probably know this already however if not give it a try. Every 1/2" matters when setting up Maggies. ENJOY !!!!


charles
SMA

[rollo]

Finally someone that knows what they are talking about. All I read about on here is we all need 1200 watt amps to begin to hear sound coming from the panels:duh:. Most people don't know how loud 90dba really is. That's loud enough to have your wife or GF come into the room and start complaining. Or if you live in an apartment someone will call the COP's on you. Especially if you have a sub going.

 Magnepan recommends 50-250 watts for the 20.1R's. I know because I own them and it's in my manual. I've borrowed a 450 watt per Mark Levinson amp that caused blue electrical arcing in the fuse holders. You could smell something burning. Then I turned the volume up a bit and saw the spark show. The speakers were moving on and across the marble floor. That amp was not even close to being clipped or pushed hard. Volume knob was at 9 o'clock on the preamp. Clearly the 20.1R's don't need 450 clean watts. And 90% of guys here say you need a thousand watts to run them. I don't get it......

cityjim

   As a Maggie owner for quite some time I respectfully disagree. Maggies love current. Until you try a Bryston 28B, Audio Research DR 250 servo mk2 or ya just don't know what the Maggies can do. There must have been something seriously wrong with the Levenson demo. We have used that gear numerous times with Maggies . Zero issues.
   Of course thay sound good with less power but can sound more relaxed with effortless playback with plenty of juice.
 If you can get your hands on a Bryston 28B for a demo, please do your self a favor and make it happen. Ya never know until you try one in YOUR system.


charles
SMA

[rw@cn]

 Magnepan recommends 50-250 watts for the 20.1R's. I know because I own them and it's in my manual. I've borrowed a 450 watt per Mark Levinson amp that caused blue electrical arcing in the fuse holders. You could smell something burning. Then I turned the volume up a bit and saw the spark show. The speakers were moving on and across the marble floor. That amp was not even close to being clipped or pushed hard. Volume knob was at 9 o'clock on the preamp. Clearly the 20.1R's don't need 450 clean watts. And 90% of guys here say you need a thousand watts to run them. I don't get it......

cityjim

Sorry about your experience with the Levinson amp but I have a Levinson 335 (about 500 into 4 ohms) and never had problems driving electrostatics or Maggies. Sounds as though that particular amp was defective or incorrectly connected.

[josh358]

Finally someone that knows what they are talking about. All I read about on here is we all need 1200 watt amps to begin to hear sound coming from the panels:duh:. Most people don't know how loud 90dba really is. That's loud enough to have your wife or GF come into the room and start complaining. Or if you live in an apartment someone will call the COP's on you. Especially if you have a sub going.

 Magnepan recommends 50-250 watts for the 20.1R's. I know because I own them and it's in my manual. I've borrowed a 450 watt per Mark Levinson amp that caused blue electrical arcing in the fuse holders. You could smell something burning. Then I turned the volume up a bit and saw the spark show. The speakers were moving on and across the marble floor. That amp was not even close to being clipped or pushed hard. Volume knob was at 9 o'clock on the preamp. Clearly the 20.1R's don't need 450 clean watts. And 90% of guys here say you need a thousand watts to run them. I don't get it......

cityjim

The issue here is peak rather than RMS power. Acoustical music can have a peak to average ratio of 20 dB. That's a factor of 100. So a 1200 watt amp operated at its maximum output would be putting out only 12 watts on average -- with today's Maggies, a bit over 90 dB at your listening seat.

[rw@cn]

The issue here is peak rather than RMS power. Acoustical music can have a peak to average ratio of 20 dB. That's a factor of 100. So a 1200 watt amp operated at its maximum output would be putting out only 12 watts on average -- with today's Maggies, a bit over 90 dB at your listening seat.

Sorry but I don't understand your logic.

[ajzepp]

I auditioned the 3.6 R's, and took the advice from magnepan's website to "buy the most resolution I could afford" so I bought 3.6R's. My room is 13 x 25 ft with 7 ft ceiling (essentially 1/4 of our basement, walled off to make a room.). I use one AVA Insight 440H amp. I bi-wire with Parts Express speakser cable (14 AWG I think). I am very happy with the sound and do not think I bought too much speaker, or that I dont have enough amp.
Happy listening,

Mark

Nice system, Mark! Have you ever considered picking up an external crossover and biamping them? Adding another one of Franks beautiful amps would really make those 3.6s sing. I was getting very good sound when I was using the Maggie passive crossovers, but when I started biamping it took the sound to another level.

[josh358]

Sorry but I don't understand your logic.

What I was trying to say is that high powered amplifiers aren't about volume per se, or the position of your volume control. If you put 1000 watts continuous into your Maggies, you'd do one of three things: blow the fuses, blow the speakers, or end up with a hearing aid. What that 1000 watts is about is cleanly reproducing the loudest instantaneous peak on one of the loudest acoustical recordings you own. With acoustical music, that means your continuous levels will be between 10 and 100 watts (and even that last will pop your fuses). If you do need all that power -- and that depends mostly on the levels at which you like to listen -- you'll hear it as a sense of openness and ease on the loudest program peaks, because the amp won't be distorting. But you won't want to turn the volume up.

[rw@cn]

Got it.

[BobM]

I guess it really depends on the kind of music you listen to. If you're a small chamber type of classical music lover, or perhaps a solo voice and simple accompaniment (piano or guitar) then a tube amp of 50-100 watts may work fine for you. But if you like recordings with dynamic contrasts then you will probably need more power and control, and that's where SS amps shine on Maggies.

However, it is probably a trade off of power and ease and bass control and general "slam" vs bloom and soundstaging and sheer beauty and such when deciding on SS vs tubed amps for Maggies.

[josh358]

Here's a great reference for those who want to get a feel for peak levels of the kind of music they play. Fig. 2 is particularly useful:

http://www.zainea.com/Dynamic%20range.htm

What immediately pops out is that few home systems, which tend to top out at 115 dB SPL or so, can reproduce all acoustical music at actual levels (I don't think you'd want to do so with amplified music, since you'd damage your ears). But I think 115 dB SPL is sufficient to reproduce most orchestral music at *plausible* levels, taking into account variations in performances, seating distance, and so forth. A lot of people don't even go for that kind of level. And if you're listening to a recording of chamber music in a hall, you probably don't have to go beyond 100 dB SPL, for which a 100 watt amplifier would do just fine. (Though chamber music heard in a living room, as it was originally intended to be performed, can be just as loud as an orchestra heard in a hall.)

Also, I think it's worth noting that amps differ in their overload characteristics. Tube amps tend to be more forgiving. Also, that the ratings usually quoted for power amps are RMS ratings, which really have little to do with how loud they play. What really matters with music is peak output, and that can be 2-3 times RMS output, with some amplifiers having more headroom than others.

[cityjim]

   As a Maggie owner for quite some time I respectfully disagree. Maggies love current. Until you try a Bryston 28B, Audio Research DR 250 servo mk2 or ya just don't know what the Maggies can do. There must have been something seriously wrong with the Levenson demo. We have used that gear numerous times with Maggies . Zero issues.
   Of course thay sound good with less power but can sound more relaxed with effortless playback with plenty of juice.
 If you can get your hands on a Bryston 28B for a demo, please do your self a favor and make it happen. Ya never know until you try one in YOUR system.


charles
SMA

 Hi Rollo,

 there was nothing wrong with the borrowed Levinson. Fantastic amp, "if you like SS". The issue was it was too powerful and offered too much gain in my system. Just too much amplifier for my tastes. I couldn't imagine a 28B on my 20.1 R's, lol. You got to be crazy Rollo  . I even had an Adcom 5802 that was clean at 450 wpc. That amp would also cause the fuse area, blue arcing light show. It would also move the panels across the floor. It never got over say 9-10 o'clock on the preamp (excessive gain issue). Both the Levinson and Adcom were more than enough horsepower. Let's just say I would cringe when a guest would come over and adjust the volume knob. Easy there tiger..... Neither the Adcom nor Levinson lacked any voltage or current. Quite the opposite was delivered.

 Going back to your 28B, I can bet you are not even using 1/4 of that amps capability, IF THAT.  So in MY mind, why buy such a large amp? Just my opinion here. Your money of course  . Guess I need to visit someone with 20.1's that has a kilowatt or more and see what's up. You would blow the fuses waaaay before you clipped the amp.

 I use a couple mono tube amps now. Each are rated at 45 wpc of full class A SET glory. They use the monster 6C33C output tubes. With a sub I get more than enjoyable sound levels. Matter of fact I even had the police over a few times, UNINVITED of course. Wasn't even pushing my amps then either. Anway enjoy your 28B's Rollo.

cityjim

[Elizabeth]

One point not mentioned about the benefits of using a big amp like the Bryston 28B-SST2 is all Bryston amps have the same 'percentage' of class 'A' bias.
So the 28 has way more class 'A' output than a smaller Bryston amp.
I have a Bryston 4B-SST2 with my 3.6s in a 11' by 28' area.
And I have them closer to the side walls, with the tweets 'in'. I also have added a wood panel to the bass side the height of the speakers, and 5" extra width. It gives a better balance. I usually play only at 60dB "C" weighted on a radio shack meter.. maybe up to 70dB...
I have not heard the 1.7s.

[josh358]

Going back to your 28B, I can bet you are not even using 1/4 of that amps capability, IF THAT.  So in MY mind, why buy such a large amp? Just my opinion here. Your money of course  . Guess I need to visit someone with 20.1's that has a kilowatt or more and see what's up. You would blow the fuses waaaay before you clipped the amp.

Don't forget that acoustical music has a peak-average ratio of 10-20 dB and a crest factor of as much as 60 dB. If you take a reading with a Rat Shack or VU meter the instantaneous peaks will typically run 15 dB hotter. And a fuse is more like a VU meter in its response time than a peak meter. If you use a 4A fuse, that's I^2R = 64 watts. So if you blow the fuse, the instantaneous peaks are somewhere between 640 and 6,400 watts. Almost any amp will be clipping at that point, including the Bryston, which puts out about 1.5 kW into 4 ohms.

The reference I always give on the peak SPL of music is Fig. 2 in this one:

http://www.zainea.com/Dynamic%20range.htm

They measured peak levels of up to 127 dB on unamplified acoustical music! Most consumer loudspeakers can't reach those levels, they peter out at 115 dB SPL or so. To get 115 dB peaks two meters from a Maggie, you need about 1000 watts. The Bryston would give you very roughly 118 dB SPL before clipping.