[randog]

Wayne and everyone,

I have in my possession now an XR45 that I plan to use for both 2-channel and HT. I'm also in the process of having 2 sub cabinets fabbed that I am planning to use with outboard amps (not plate amps). I will have to split the sub-out feed on the XR45... or...

Could I do this   :

Daisy-chain two XR-45's together using the digital optical out on one. Use one in party mode with my main speakers bi-amped and have the 2nd one used for the center and surrounds. Then also use the 2nd one's main speaker posts to power the subs (through a passive xo). This would provide power to the subs and also allow true stereo for the subs on the cheap.

The other option is to use one for all speakers and the other just for the subs.

I'm curious about the logistics of doing this and whether it would work for 2-channel as well as HT using the subs for both. Any opinions?

It sounds like there's enough power on tap for 12" drivers based on your RM40 sound sessions...

Thanks.  

PS: who makes a good passive crossover that would work in this application?

[azryan]

When in HT the digital coming in would be a DD/DTS signal. I'm pretty sure you couldn't set the first 45 to party mode in that mode.

You could switch speaker cables from bi-amped to single amped when in HT mode, but that'd be a lame hassle I think.

On on the 2nd 45...

I think it'd be able to also get the same 5.1 feed as the first 45 and let you power your surrounds/center w/ it, but I think the set up already wouldn't work 'cuz of the prob w/ the first 45.

You wouldn't be able to power the subs from the digital .1 feed 'cuz you can't redirect that signal to the main speaker outputs (and too bad 'cuz that might be cool).

This thing is really no subwoofer amp though IMO, but I guess it depends on levels and the subs, etc...

Personally I'm going for a HT mod and using a sepp. sub amp for my dual subs.

There's only so much this little critter will do. hehe

You could take the analog sub output from the first pannie and split it into the analog inputs on the 2nd pannie and power dual subs like that.

I wouldn't though, but it might work for you.

I'm not sure why you say 'no plate amps'. An amps and amp. You could buy a specific subwoofer plate amp and just make a simple box for it as if it's just a normal amp.

You might be able to power both subs off the same amp if it can handle it. I prefer that to splitting the signal from tests I've done.

IMO too 'stereo' subs don't exist when you're playing ~80Hz and below bass. Much better to find the optimal bass loading in your room and put both subs together to maximize their effi. and minimize their dist. level and play the exact same signal.

It sucks the PAnnie doesn't have an 80Hz setting, but 100Hz is like a tenth of an octave higher (there are steeper slopes though I know).
It's not a big deal IMO.

It's non-directional in my room both loaded in the left corner. I run my mains and surrounds 'Large' and that I think keeps the bass from even being localized.

Many sub plate amps let you tweak this further though my tappering off whatever your mains play down to with it's low-pass filter.

[randog]

When in HT the digital coming in would be a DD/DTS signal. I'm pretty sure you couldn't set the first 45 to party mode in that mode....

It has a button to turn surround sources into 2-channel. That's called STEREO/2CH MIX.  There's another button used for Party and that's called SFC for SOUND FIELD CONTROL. It is not clear from the manual if you can use them simultaneously. I call it a 50/50 shot. Why are you pretty sure you can't do it?

You could switch speaker cables from bi-amped to single amped when in HT mode, but that'd be a lame hassle I think....

Agreed. My speakers don't need to be biamped but why not use the extra amplification if it's there? If that doesn't work (the Party mode with DD/DTS) then my other option should work (all speakers on one and subs on the other)... but then I'm not using 5 channels of the amps (1 and 4).

On on the 2nd 45...

I think it'd be able to also get the same 5.1 feed as the first 45 and let you power your surrounds/center w/ it, but I think the set up already wouldn't work 'cuz of the prob w/ the first 45.

You wouldn't be able to power the subs from the digital .1 feed 'cuz you can't redirect that signal to the main speaker outputs (and too bad 'cuz that might be cool).

This thing is really no subwoofer amp though IMO, but I guess it depends on levels and the subs, etc...
....

Why not? What would be better than using the same amp for your subs than your other speakers for seamless integration as long as it has the power???

Personally I'm going for a HT mod and using a sepp. sub amp for my dual subs. ....

You won't have true stereo, tho.  

There's only so much this little critter will do. hehe

You could take the analog sub output from the first pannie and split it into the analog inputs on the 2nd pannie and power dual subs like that. ....

 

I'm not sure why you say 'no plate amps'. An amps and amp. You could buy a specific subwoofer plate amp and just make a simple box for it as if it's just a normal amp. ....

"An amps and amp." what's that mean? I don't think you mean an amp's an amp... do you?

Yea, I could. If I wanted to... I still may because of the features the sub amps have... but I may not...   I like to do things the hard way, I guess.  

It may sound dumb to you, but I think it's slick. For another $300, I could have amplification for my subs that matches my other speakers... in true stereo... and set the crossover to what I like. My drivers are not true subs... more like bass drivers... they will be Sonic Craft SCC300's. It just sounds like a cool setup if indeed it works.  

[BenF]

The digital output is stereo L and R only. You can't feed the 5.1 in and out.

However, I think you could do the 5.1 on the first XR45 for center and surrounds and then biamp the fronts on a second XR45 using the optical out from the first in SFC Party mode.

If you want to do stereo listening only, then just switch the first one to 2CH/Stereo Mix and the second will still function the same, but the center and surrounds should be off.

Hope this helps.

Ben

[zybar]

What about feeding two XR45's with a transport that can out coax and toslink at the same time?

George

[daveric]

I was only thinking about this myself  yesterday.A transport with 2 digital outs ,one coax and one toslink should enable use of two XR45's at the same time, that way you could bi-amp all 6 chs if you wanted and have biamped  6 ch HT !!  
 One remote control should do volume on both xr45's  .
 Have to be carefull to have both Xr45s set the same for  speaker distance or your mids and woofers will be out of time .

[randog]

The digital output is stereo L and R only. You can't feed the 5.1 in and out.

I did not know this. Thanks!

However, I think you could do the 5.1 on the first XR45 for center and surrounds and then biamp the fronts on a second XR45 using the optical out from the first in SFC Party mode..

Yes! And use the mains on the first XR45 for the stereo subs.

If you want to do stereo listening only, then just switch the first one to 2CH/Stereo Mix and the second will still function the same, but the center and surrounds should be off...

This should also work with the subs hooked to the first unit.

Thanks for the feedback.  

[randog]

What about feeding two XR45's with a transport that can out coax and toslink at the same time?

George

Hmmm... more to play with!  

I'm liking this conversation... it gets the wheels churning.  

[azryan]

"-It is not clear from the manual if you can use them simultaneously. I call it a 50/50 shot. Why are you pretty sure you can't do it?-"

'Cuz you can't set it to two diff. settings at the same time. Either it's stereo or it's DPL2, or DTS, Party mode, etc...

I don't think downmixing a full surround recording into stereo and then also taking a sepp. 5.1 feed and running true center and surround channels would work well at all.

"-Agreed. My speakers don't need to be biamped but why not use the extra amplification if it's there?-"

Well... either you need the power or you don't.
If you go from ~100W to 200W, but you still use less than 100, what benefit would that be?

Also it really seemed like in party mode the gain on the Pannie's volume drops ~6db which would give you less max power than normal amping at 100WPC (which is only 3db less max SPL as 200WPC).

"-What would be better than using the same amp for your subs than your other speakers for seamless integration as long as it has the power???-"

I don't exactly get your question as you wrote it.
I'll just say again I don't think the amps in this Pannie are meant at all to be subwoofer amps but you might be able to get away with it.

Just because they seem to work on the RM-40's doesn't mean that they're fine for any subwoofers.

Personally I'm going for a HT mod and using a sepp. sub amp for my dual subs. ....

"-You won't have true stereo, tho.-"

Sure I will.
1). My mains are basically full range, so I don't use my subs for music.

2). Non-directional bass is non-directional. You can set up dual subs to 'look' like they're in a stereo config. along w/ your mains but that's not any more 'stereo' than someone playing non-directional sub bass from one point in the room.

"An amps and amp." what's that mean? I don't think you mean an amp's an amp... do you?-"

Yes, I meant 'an amp's an amp'. It was just a type-o.

I'm not saying all amps are the same, but I was questioning why you said 'no plate' amps.
I figured you said no plate amps 'cuz you wanted to have passive subs, but anyone can use a plate amp just like any other amp -plus a dedicated 'sub plate amp' is designed to run low Imp. subs and give you featues that could come in handy unlike just a plain amp w/ nothing more than an on/off switch.

"-It may sound dumb to you, but I think it's slick. For another $300, I could have amplification for my subs that matches my other speakers...-"

That doesn't sound 'dumb', but when you're talking 'sub bass', there's no reason IMO to care about matching amps. There are fare more important things to consider and I think the Pannie wouldn't be the best choice when you look at those.

"-in true stereo...-"

Again... it'll only 'look' like it's true stereo.

"-and set the crossover to what I like.-"

Which is why I recc. a sub plate amp.

"-My drivers are not true subs... more like bass drivers... they will be Sonic Craft SCC300's. It just sounds like a cool setup if indeed it works.-"

Not true subs? Well... that's a critical point that I didn't know. I don't know the specs on that driver.

What you seem to be talking about then would be wanting to 'tri-amp' your mains.

Good luck. You've got a very complicated set-up you're looking to put together.

[randog]

Ya know, I'm not sure why, but you come across fairly indignant.   I've never got into a pissing match here on AC and don't plan to start now.

[randog]

The idea has been scratched due to private conversations with 2 people who's input I trust and who are pretty well regarded in the industry. Both said to avoid a passive crossover if at all possible. It was fun dreaming around with the scenario's, however... quite a brain tease. I do agree that the most logical way to make use of multiple units is to have both running the same setup and biamp from each or go with up to 12.1 HT!   It would still be a cheap way to go even if you got the 2nd unit just to biamp your mains for HT, if needed (or sub amps in my case if the crossover wasn't an issue).

The more I think about it, I agree with azryan that you probably can't run one unit in DD/DTS and the other in Party mode biamping your mains on the 2nd one as you would probably end up with all the 5-channel information from the DD/DTS in your mains while having the rest of the surrounds doing normal surround duty. That is, unless the digital-out only outputs the front L&R information of the DD/DTS signal, in which case it *would* work. That's all I'm giving up tho - the rest of the post in content (and certainly the tone) I don't agree with.

The fact remains that the XR-45 is damn cheap even compared to a pair of plate amps so it only makes logical sense to go wild with the possibilities of wringing it for all it's worth. It's not really a matter of complication or using it beyond it's intent, but rather to see how you can tweak it and manipulate it to get it to do whatever you want it to do for a particular application (like trying to isolate it as a stand-alone amp when it is actually a pre/pro/amp/receiver with spartan inputs/outputs and settings). And to think they could probably be offering the same 6-channel as a stand-alone amp for half the cost.  

[azryan]

"-Ya know, I'm not sure why, but you come across fairly indignant.-"

Nice.

I was trying to help you. I'm sorry that I made actual points that you didn't like to hear?
Maybe instead of insulting me you should have said why you disagree with my points.

That's not a 'pissing match' (god I hate that childish phrase).

It's just people debating a point, and it meant to be for your benefit.
 
Do I have to say everything with little smileys all over for people not to get ticked off at me? Forget I tried to help.

[randog]

"-Ya know, I'm not sure why, but you come across fairly indignant.-"

Nice.

I was trying to help you. I'm sorry that I made actual points that you didn't like to hear?
Maybe instead of insulting me you should have said why you disagree with my points.

That's not a 'pissing match' (god I hate that childish phrase).

It's just people debating a point, and it meant to be for your benefit.
 
Do I have to say everything with little smileys all over for people not to get ticked off at me? Forget I tried to help.

It's hard to read tone in text. If you weren't trying to be 'snitty' (another childish phrase for ya), then I apologize. When you end it with "Good luck. You've got a very complicated set-up you're looking to put together." Well, what word would you use to describe that? 'Indignant' immediately came to mind. Now, I've seen you battle here before yet my record is clean. Maybe you should give me the benefit of the doubt when I say that you came across that way. If it's just your writing style and you don't mean it that way, well now I know... and I appreciate your input.

You spent a great deal of time explaining why I was dumb to think that a plate amp with a passive crossover wasn't up to par with what I wanted to accomplish and then commented at the very end that I missed telling you the critical point that my drivers aren't true subs (which is true)... yet left in all the previous banter in that was no longer as pertinent to try and slap me around a bit, I guess.  

So... what do you expect me to think about you after all that?

I'll let others debate with you about:

1. an amp's an amp
2. plate amps are fine
3. passive crossovers are fine
4. subs can't play in stereo

All of which I'd debate, especially (and mainly) with the drivers I'm using (I know, a critical point   ).

[maxwalrath]

  nice use of smiley faces.

[azryan]

Now IMO that's how to debate -actually addressing what I specifically said.

We can disagree without it being some horrible thing. Note... I never said I wasn't being indignant.. I probably was. sorry.

I had said some things like 'sub bass is non-directional so 'stereo subs' don't exist IMO'.

You didn't agree (fine), but you didn't say why I was wrong. That kinda thing ticks me off a bit. I think non-directional is enough to prove it's not stereo, but looks like you'd runnig your woofers higher so that IS directional stereo bass in that range.

Do you disagree that sub 80Hz bass is non-directional and therefore can be stereo if set up that way? If you do I'd be curious why you think that. I like to learn something if I'm wrong.

"-You spent a great deal of time explaining why I was dumb to think that a plate amp with a passive crossover wasn't up to par-"

I think that's going too far. I never called you dumb, or implied it even. That's where 'detate' degrades to fighting and you didn't seem to want that. Neither do I.

And I was suggesting that you DO go w/ a plate amp and to use the 'digital' x-over in the Pannie for it's 100Hz x-over point so I don't understand why you think I said the opposite?

I see your point that I could have then erased all I wrote after I saw that you're not talking about sub-only bass.

I can see why you thought I was slapping you around to leave it in too. I'm sorry you took it that way. I didn't mean it like that.

I try to not ever edit my posts. It's just a habit I have that if I say (type) something, then I said it.

I've seen people post stuff they later regret and edit out. I think that's weak and something we couldn't do if we were just having a spoken conversation.

I know I often piss people off. When someone like you actually tries to find out what I meant I really try to explain myself and work it out.
 
Usually people just say some dumbass wisecrack that makes me glad they felt insulted by me in the first place. heh

I hontestly do think you were looking to make something very complicated out of something that didn't have to be. You did pretty much say that yourself though.

I really don't think the Pannie has the build or power to drive subs as I typically think of insane LFE theater ref. level bass, but as I said... it depends on how you intend to use your dual woofers, and the Pannie could very well work for you.

I didn't want to see you blow up a Pannie because you felt it was a better option than a sub plate amp meant for low imp. and high current peaks.

[randog]

Thanks for the post. I can see it was all a misunderstanding and I agree with most everything in your last post.    Especially the complication part... which doesn't really phase me... it's only complication of the mind and once it's all set up, it's done. The issue is dead for me but I'm looking forward to hearing about when someone does daisy chain these things together and whether world's will collide.

[Rocket]

Hi,

Well guys i'd like to know if anyone has had or are having their panasonic xr45 modded by wayne at bolder?

Regards

Rod

[BenF]

The manual states on page 21, "When you select DVD 6CH INPUT mode, only sound from the front left and right channels is recorded." It is not a mixdown of the entire 6 channel information.

I hope you find a good solution to your project.

Ben

[Wayne1]

Rod,

I have modded one unit for a customer. His comments can be read here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=8591

Tyson and Sunshinedawg have given me their unit to have them modded for HT use.

I have at least one more on the way to me for a two channel mod.

The hold-up in getting any more mods done has been the plates that hold the binding posts. I am simply not good enough with a drill to put 12 holes in a piece of aluminum on a consistent basis.

The plates for both the two channel/bi-amp mod and the HT mod are being made on a computer controlled milling machine. I should have them by the end of this week/early next week. By the end of next week, I hopefully will have the two local units finished.