[Wayner]

After owning these speakers for 11 years, you'd think I'd have the location figured out. But lately I  had the feeling that the music sounded compressed, or just lacking that "stereo" fun.

So I spread them 6 inches further apart yesterday afternoon. Now they are about 3 feet from the rear wall, 5 1/2 feet from the side wall (on one side, 8' from the other wall (slightly goofy room) and 10 feet apart. The listening position is exactly centered between the speakers, about 10 feet back. There is also an additional 14 feet behind my listening position, as this is a fairly large room like 24 x 27.

Well, needless to say, the system sound has changed drastically. It has now become extremely 3D and is very exciting to listen to digital, especially things that like to pan from left to right.

Has anyone played around with the width spacing and experienced the same thing?

 

Wayner

[John Casler]

Throw a blanket over the TV, Rack, and the glass Coffee table and get ready for another sonic revelation.

But I will add that I don't think we "ever" get it to a point that even a little change can give us a different sonic to compare and possibly enjoy.

Just part of the Hobby.

I have spent the morning fooling around with a SUB woofer tweak that has me very pleased.

Ya gotta love these little experiments.

[mort]

I have found through placement tweeks and towing tweeks along with moving the listening position foward and back you can dramaticaly precieve the the width of instruments. For example if I sit closer to the speakers than they are apart a drum kit will appear in the center but it will sound concederably wider than the engineer intended say 15 feet from left hi-hat to the far right simble or tom. As I move more into a direct triangle positiion, the size of the drum set condenses to a more realistic image. In the sterophile test Cd 3 they have a dramatic examle of this phenomenom a man walks around the stage banging a cow bell and verbaly announcing his position. As he calls out his position realitive to the piano (im standing on the stage right side of the piano, im standing stage left of the piano) you can tweek for the correct width in your sound feild. Awesome.

[Wayner]

The coffee table has a crocheted cover, so the reflections are diminished. The TV screen is not within the MLs planar field, so I also think it is null in it's room effects.

I do think that, as with other speaker experiences, that when speakers are too close together, they create a sonic pressure ridge (if you will) between them that disturbs the sound field. There maybe a very fine line between too close and too far apart as we experiment and evaluate the systems. In most cases that I have here in my own home, I think I can make this general statement that the larger the speaker, the further apart they must be to achieve the proper sound stage.

I do agree that if they are too far apart, that the sound-stage becomes disconnected. As I stated before, things that pan from one channel to another should have a seamless flow from one channel to another (creating the sonic illusion), otherwise, something is not right with the speaker spacing.

This also brings up the point to another thread currently circulating here, about the room being too small for speakers. There seems to be a magical distance relationship between speakers and the listener and if your room size or shape keeps you from getting to these  parameters, the speaker/room clash may never be resolved and end up in a very unhappy marriage, if there ever was one.

Wayner

[Letitroll98]

So I spread them 6 inches further apart yesterday afternoon.

Well, needless to say, the system sound has changed drastically. It has now become extremely 3D and is very exciting to listen to digital, especially things that like to pan from left to right.

Has anyone played around with the width spacing and experienced the same thing?

Wayner

Well yeah, ya think?  Right there with you Wayne, you're 100% correct that moving the speakers can reinvigorate your listening experience, that we never really get it 100% correct, only a compromise that meets our present expectations, and spacing directly affects the soundstage.  My speakers change character every 1/2" I move them.

Regarding spread, I've been most happy with elements of the old Audio Physic placement guide, where you keep spreading them apart until you lose center image, then move them back a smidgen.  I don't follow any guide exactly, but keeping those thoughts in mind, I apply it to listening for the center image to grow diffuse, then I move them back closer until the center image becomes more focused and lifelike.  Glad to hear you had a positive outcome.     

 

[SteveFord]

I'm glad that you posted this thread as it got me experimenting with my 3.6 placement.
Two inches out from the side wall on the left hand side, move both speakers two inches further forward, stuck a plant in the corner, pulled the drapes shut and it's much more better than new.

[Wayner]

I think the main reason I started it was because I was amazed how little difference in distance made such an impact on the sound field presentation. They were fairly far apart as it was, but that little bit extra was the luck of the move. If they weren't so damn heavy and I didn't have physical interferences with furniture, I'd try move them a little further apart, tho I think a hole may develop in the sound stage.

Perhaps tomorrow I will try for a bit extra, but I'm close to the max right now.

Hopefully, like Steve posted, others may try experimenting and find some new rewards with larger spacings.

One other note, I am a fan of putting the speakers along the long wall, not the short wall, as many do. I guess it's my own preference, but I don't see how a great sound stage can develop unless you are along the long wall.

Wayner

[Letitroll98]

One other note, I am a fan of putting the speakers along the long wall, not the short wall, as many do. I guess it's my own preference, but I don't see how a great sound stage can develop unless you are along the long wall.

Wayner

This is really getting scary Wayne, we are now in agreement on two things in one thread.  One of us may have to stop posting today.  Anyway, yeah, I can't for the life of me figure out why the short wall placement is so popular in expert recommendations.  Isn't the idea to reduce early reflections and spread them out in time as far as possible from first arrival?  In a rectangular room I don't see how this can be accomplished from using the short wall for placement. 

[neobop]

This is really getting scary Wayne, we are now in agreement on two things in one thread.  One of us may have to stop posting today.  Anyway, yeah, I can't for the life of me figure out why the short wall placement is so popular in expert recommendations.  Isn't the idea to reduce early reflections and spread them out in time as far as possible from first arrival?  In a rectangular room I don't see how this can be accomplished from using the short wall for placement.

It depends on the type of speakers and the room, mostly. Most listening rooms aren't the size of Wayner's room. Dipoles need space behind and it often works out better on the short wall. Bass and stage often develop better using the length of the room. Unfortunately standing waves do too. But the reality is that irregularities often dictate how a room is best used - things like doors and alcoves.
neo

[Wayner]

This is really getting scary Wayne, we are now in agreement on two things in one thread.

I'm glad we share the same experiences. It just feels good to discover something that creates a benefit, that didn't cost any money. A free upgrade, if you will. I'm sure there are more, they are just yet, undiscovered.

Wayner 

[andyr]

I'm glad that you posted this thread as it got me experimenting with my 3.6 placement.
Two inches out from the side wall on the left hand side, move both speakers two inches further forward, stuck a plant in the corner, pulled the drapes shut and it's much more better than new.

Steve, have you tried the "1/3rd / 1/5th" rule?

I came across a speaker positioning paper many years ago which suggested that, for best bass, the centre of the bass driver (bass panel in our case) should be on the intersection of 1/5th dimension and 1/3rd dimension lines.  And your ears.

EG. (assuming you fire down the long dimension) if your room is 25' long, put the centre of the bass panels 5' out from the front wall.  If the room is 15' wide then make the centre of the bass panels 3' in from the side walls.  Put ribbons in or ribbons out as your prefer.

And put your ears, say, 8'4" out from the back wall. 

I can send the article to you, if you PM me your email address.

Regards,

Andy

[SteveFord]

AndyR,
That'd be great.
Could you post a link to it here? 

[andyr]

AndyR,
That'd be great.
Could you post a link to it here?

It's not a "link", Steve - I have the 8 or 9 pages stored as separate PDFs on my hard drive.

Regards,

Andy

[newzooreview]

It's not a "link", Steve - I have the 8 or 9 pages stored as separate PDFs on my hard drive.

Regards,

Andy

That's easily solved: dropbox.com

2 Gb of free storage, and you can link to the file. It works on Linux, Mac, and Windows.

Happy listening! 

[Letitroll98]

Steve, have you tried the "1/3rd / 1/5th" rule?

I came across a speaker positioning paper many years ago which suggested that, for best bass, the centre of the bass driver (bass panel in our case) should be on the intersection of 1/5th dimension and 1/3rd dimension lines.  And your ears.

This would place the speakers in a null area reducing bass re-enforcement at the room's bass nodes.  If you're looking to tame bass resonances this will work very well.  If you're trying to increase bass response at your listening room's nodes, with for example bass shy panels like MMG's or for another circle, mini-monitors, this would not be the ideal placement.  Also remember this placement is only addressing bass response, not imaging or high frequency response.  A good rule of thumb is even order dimensions increase bass, odd order dimensions decrease bass.

[jtwrace]

dropbox.com sure is fantastic.  You can also use Adobe (not reader) and convert the PDF's to jpeg and then you can post them. 

[jdbrian]

Hi Wayne

  Have you ever tried moving your speakers far from the rear wall - say 6 ft. In theory this delays the reflection from the rear wall greater than 10ms and improves the perception of the direct sound. The reflections then are percieved as greater ambiance. I have found this to be the case with dipoles in my room. Who knows what this will do to your bass response but it is relatively easy to try and free.

Brian

[Wayner]

Thanks Brian,

I was thinking about doing that myself, but I'm really limited to how far out I can bring the speakers. It's all because of the one corner of the room, not shown in the photo, that has the stairs coming down and I really can't move the couch. I'll have to work around those issues.

Wayner

[twitch54]

Ahhhhh the simple pleasures of life Wayner.......ain't it great !

I wonder.......by seperating your speakers those 6 inches do you think it helped with the 'possible' imaging issues  you could of had with components and TV between them ?


Dave

[Wayner]

Hi Dave! Certainly the audio rack may have been blocking some musical content from the rear radiation of the panel. This I was always suspect of. However, the back of the MLs reveal a strange radiation pattern of music, much like an ellipse reflector in lighting where the music all crosses at a point somewhere about 1 1/2 feet behind the speaker, and then hits the wall. Having about a 10 degree toe-in puts most of that content to an early side wall reflection. Because I have unequal sidewall distances, this does not seem to be the cause, because the imaging is still almost perfectly centered and balanced. This is good food for thought and I do suspect because of the nature of planar designs, the sound is affected by several considerations at one time.

Wayner