Impedance and SS Power Output

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Wind Chaser

Impedance and SS Power Output
« on: 5 Nov 2010, 01:46 am »
Most SS amplifiers respond to a 4 Ω load with an average of 60% more power output compared to how they measure with an 8 Ω load.  But what happens when a 12 ohm or higher load is applied?  Does the power output decrease? 

*Scotty*

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #1 on: 5 Nov 2010, 02:32 am »
Bingo! And if the efficiency doesn't increase proportionally as load increases than you will run out of power and clip much more quickly than if you were driving an 8 or 4 ohm load.
Scotty

Wind Chaser

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #2 on: 5 Nov 2010, 02:44 am »
So then my 25 watt amp @ 8 Ω - which has a net increase of 60% more power @ 4 Ω - would have a net decrease of 60% @ 12 Ω?

*Scotty*

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #3 on: 5 Nov 2010, 03:04 am »
Yup. If I divide 25 by 1.5 I get 16.66 watts.  16.66 divided by 25 gives me 0.6666 .
I think your math is about right. If you doubled the load to 16 ohms you would be at 12.5 watts.
We are making the assumption that your amp behaves more or less like a true voltage source.
Scotty

Wind Chaser

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #4 on: 5 Nov 2010, 07:55 am »
It's a good thing my 12 ohm speakers are 101 db @ 1 watt.  How does a tube amp deal with a 12 ohms - will it retain the same output as if it was driving an 8 ohm load?

*Scotty*

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #5 on: 5 Nov 2010, 11:02 am »
It depends entirely on if your output transformer has 12 ohm taps or not.
A tube amp is a constant current device. The output transformer makes it possible for the amp to supply the current it has available to the load with the lowest distortion possible. Without the proper tap to match the load you have an an unpredictable outcome.
Scotty

Wind Chaser

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #6 on: 5 Nov 2010, 11:18 am »
I've seen 4, 8 and 16 ohm taps but never 12 ohm.  My understanding is the higher the impedance, the easier it is for the amp, but it's too bad it comes at a cost.  However even if my 25 watt amp is reduced to 10 watts, I can't complain.  10 watts into 101 db sensitive speakers goes along way.

CSI

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Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #7 on: 5 Nov 2010, 11:43 am »
Most SS amplifiers respond to a 4 Ω load with an average of 60% more power output compared to how they measure with an 8 Ω load.  But what happens when a 12 ohm or higher load is applied?  Does the power output decrease?

The drop in power with increase in impedance (and vice versa) is in accordance with Ohms law. The amount of power an amp delivers when the impedance is halved will also depend on the amps power supply and a number of other factors best explained by one of the amp mfgs. on this forum. A confusing point for many audiophiles is the speaker impedance rating. 4, 8, and 16 ohms are just nominal ratings. An eye opening chart, if you can find one, is the modulus of impedance for your speakers. You'll be surprised to see how much impedance varies with frequency. It is likely to be near the rated number only around the critical bass frequencies (assuming the builder gave you an honest measurement) and will usually be much higher than that in the treble regions.

Wind Chaser

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #8 on: 5 Nov 2010, 01:45 pm »
An eye opening chart, if you can find one, is the modulus of impedance for your speakers. You'll be surprised to see how much impedance varies with frequency...

I haven't seen the measurements for my current speakers but I've seen other manufactures publish their impedance curves.  I’d wager electrostats have the most radical swings of all speakers. 

Steve

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #9 on: 5 Nov 2010, 07:14 pm »
A tube amp is a constant current device.

Things vary. In pentode mode, it can approximate a constant current source. As one changes to ultra linear and then triode mode, it becomes much more of a constant voltage source, but usually not as good as SS amps. (Assuming no negative feedback to lower the output impedance (Z).)

Quote
It depends entirely on if your output transformer has 12 ohm taps or not..............

The output transformer makes it possible for the amp to supply the current it has available to the load with the lowest distortion possible. Without the proper tap to match the load you have an an unpredictable outcome.

I agree. It depends upon the primary to secondary ratio. Output power changes, harmonics relative to each other change. It is a mixed bag depending upon the design.

Cheers.

Wind Chaser

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #10 on: 5 Nov 2010, 11:09 pm »
So without listening, how does one choose the ideal type of amplifier for a high impedance load?

*Scotty*

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #11 on: 6 Nov 2010, 02:01 am »
Are you talking solid state or tube amplifiers?
Scotty

Steve

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #12 on: 6 Nov 2010, 03:42 am »
So without listening, how does one choose the ideal type of amplifier for a high impedance load?

For SS, figure less power output than at 8 ohms. Impedances change all over the place anyway, so rarely does one obtain maximum power output anyway.

For tube amps, one can either go with the 8 ohm tap and generally have a little less overall distortion and less power, or go with the 16 ohm tap and generally have more power with higher levels of distortion.
I won't get into harmonic relationships.

Cheers.

Wind Chaser

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #13 on: 7 Nov 2010, 02:36 am »
This is interesting.  As much as I love my little SS amp, I'm curious to try some tubes again because my current speakers are 12 ohms.

Johnny2Bad

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #14 on: 10 Nov 2010, 04:58 pm »
Are you talking solid state or tube amplifiers?
Scotty


Solid State could use an output transformer just like Vacuum State does; it's just that most don't (it's kind of expensive). McIintosh SS amps do, for example, and it was quite common in the early days of Solid State. If there's a power transformer, then (assuming there are taps, and the load is reasonably matched to the tap) it's the same power output into any of the available loads.


I also don't agree with the 60% thing. What a SS amp (that does not use an output transformer) can deliver into varying loads depends on how it's constructed. If the power supply is adequate and the devices are suitably rated and the unit can dissipate the required heat, it should double or half ... 1 volt into 8 ohms is 2 volts into 4 ohms.


Amplifiers that really do deliver less than 2x into a 4 ohm load have some limitation that's preventing that, or it's using a design where that's not feasible. Typically it's the power supply, because that's often the most expensive area to build really robust, but it could be something else.


It could even be just the specification itself ... amps must meet the UL or CSA safety test regimen for every power rating and load they specify in the spec sheet, and those include limits on how hot it can get because it's a consumer product sold for use in the home (even if it could run hotter safely). If it won't meet a low-impedance UL test, all you have to do is not rate it for that load, and in that case you can pass the test and get certified.


Perhaps it's even de-rated or simply not rated into a given load because it can't meet the UL test, but in reality if you ask it to, away it goes for the short periods we ask amps to produce transients playing music. There are lots of possible scenarios.


There's a saying when you are doing survival or navigation training: "The map is not the territory". The audio corollary is: The spec sheet is not the performance.


Since everything costs money, different designers make different choices toward different goals. Unless you're building those five and six-figure amps that Stereophile keeps insisting really exist, there has to be some compromise between value and performance somewhere. I don't mean to suggest that an amp that does deliver, say, 160% of it's rated 8 ohm continuous power into a 4 ohm load is somehow inadequate ... money spent on something you can't use is money wasted, as far as the user is concerned. Match the amp to your power needs and the intended load, and go listening.


Most SS amplifiers respond to a 4 Ω load with an average of 60% more power output compared to how they measure with an 8 Ω load.  But what happens when a 12 ohm or higher load is applied?  Does the power output decrease?


The amp could be designed to work optimally into a 12 ohm load, and deliver the best power into that load. It's just that it isn't the way we've customarily done it.

Wind Chaser

Re: Impedance and SS Power Output
« Reply #15 on: 11 Nov 2010, 01:05 am »
The amp could be designed to work optimally into a 12 ohm load, and deliver the best power into that load. It's just that it isn't the way we've customarily done it.

To that end I've used Speltz ZERO Impedance Autotransformers in the past.  Using them in 'reverse' they enabled my amp to deal with a 2 ohm load rather than an 8 ohm load which my amp at the time preferred.  I know that seems strange, especially for a SET (actually SEP) but it did make a positive difference in the sound quality.