Recs for a DAC for SB touch in the <=$600 range?

Cacophonix · « **on:** 3 Nov 2010, 05:28 am »

I'm looking for a DAC for my SB touch and have shortlisted the following :
Used benchmark DAC1
Used eastern electric DAC
Cambridge audio DAC magic

On audiogon i've seen benchmarks routinely go for around $600, and the same holds good for EE. DacMagic is a little cheaper, but seems well reviewed.

I have not used or heard any of three, and i wanted to know a couple of things.
- Are any of the 3 DACs above a big step up from the internal DACs in SB touch?
- Any other DACs that i should consider in the <=600+ price range?

My equipment is as follows:

Sony 5400ES SACD/CD player
Odyssey Khartago SE mono amps
Adcom GFP750 preamp
SB Touch
Selah Audio Symmetrica line arrays (Planar edition)

Very inexpensive interconnects and speaker cables (belkin pureav).

roscoeiii · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 10:15 am »

I had the ee dac and was really impressed by it. You may also want to see about the emotiva dac that comes out later this month. Discrete output stage and other features unique for this price range. $299 I believe.

firedog · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 11:20 am »

The DAC in the touch is pretty good, you might be happy with it.

You might want to try it before you buy a relatively modest DAC, or at least buy the DAC on the condition that you can return it.

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #3 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 12:31 pm »

Emotiva is coming out with their new XDA-1 DAC Dec 1st. $299. Might get on there order list and give it a try. 30 day return policy.
cheers
Charlie

playntheblues · « **Reply #4 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 01:32 pm »

Hey Raj, it is very difficult to beat the Bel Canto Dac 2 for the money.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #5 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 01:41 pm »

I have worked with various models of Squeezeboxen over the past few years. The stock Touch is the best sounding of them all. I have compared stock and modded SB to various DACs in the same time period. It was not until I heard the EE MiniMax DAC that I heard one that I could honestly say sounded better than a modded SB analog out.

To my ears, the Benchmark was too analytical. It was very revealing but it did not reproduce music. It recreated sound. My suggestion would be to find a used MiniMax and roll some tubes.

Down the road there are things that can be done to improve the sound of both units, but that is for another circle

sts9fan · « **Reply #6 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 03:10 pm »

The new Musical Fidelity M1 Dac looks interesting.
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/M1-Series/M1DAC/M1DAC.asp

mca · « **Reply #7 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 03:57 pm »

Is the DAC in the Touch better than the ESS DAC in the Peachtree Nova? Anyone have any experience with these?

Cacophonix · « **Reply #8 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 04:23 pm »

Thanks for all the responses guys!

I was leaning more towards benchmark mainly because it is supposed to have a stellar headphone amp. From what i can tell the other two don't.

It'd be really interesting to compare the internal DAC of touch with the standalone ones.

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #9 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 05:42 pm »

As wayne1 in his post about the Touch he said it was the best sounding one so far.
I'm not trying to rap your audio system in any way. If you're are happy with what you hear then don't make any changes.
BUT!!! If it were my system I'd get rid of the Adcom pre. I had one. There are a lot better pre's out there. On agon you can pick one up quite reasonable.
Please don't get mad at me. Just my opinion based on what I've had and heard over the past 100 years.

Cheers
Charlie

Wayne1 · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 06:00 pm »

There is more to a Digital Analog Converter than the D/A chip. The power supply is most important when using the ESS chips. High quality voltage regulators will allow those chips to really sing. Unfortunately they do cost quite a bit of money to do right.

The Touch will sound better using a linear power supply over the supplied switcher. The Touch's analog output is crippled in stock form by having it's signal passed through polarized electrolytic capacitors. With some changes to the Touch, I feel the analog output is equivalent or better than most outboard DACs selling for less than $750.00

I am not sure what ESS chip is being used in the PeachTree. I do not believe it is the 9018 that is used in the EE MiniMax. The quality of the power supply, I/E stage and output circuit will have more of an affect on the sound 0f the unit than just the D/A chip will.

The Touch uses an AKM4420 D/A chip that has an analog output section built into it. Fewer parts and a cleaner signal path. It might be a bit limited to total current output if you are feeding long cables or a very low input impedance.

srb · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 06:13 pm »

Quote from: Wayne1 on 3 Nov 2010, 06:00 pm

I am not sure what ESS chip is being used in the PeachTree. I do not believe it is the 9018 that is used in the EE MiniMax. The quality of the power supply, I/E stage and output circuit will have more of an affect on the sound 0f the unit than just the D/A chip will.

I agree completely, as well as the actual circuit board layout. BTW, the Peachtree Nova, Decco2 and iDecco all use the ESS 9006.

Steve

lcrim · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 06:20 pm »

I sold my SB3's (w/ Bolder digital mods) and all the DACs they were connected to but retained the linear, regulated power supplies that I had w/ them and got two Bolder analog modded Touch's.
All my sound stuff is on wired ethernet and the flac files are sent as PCM along w/ the other Soundcheck software upgrades. The quality of playback both 24/96 and Red Book rips is truly reference quality now. There is a good possibility that, in the future a software solution to turn off all power to the screen (not just the backlight) will exist, thus removing the electrical noise of the screen as well.
The ESS DAC is highly thought of but for the investment I have, I'm very satisfied. The Touch, after the removal of the electrolytic capacitors and other cleanups by Wayne just keeps sounding better and better to my ears.

Cacophonix · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 06:21 pm »

I've the SB duet currently hooked up to my main rig upstairs, and SB touch is downstairs with the HT setup. I'll swap them today, and compare its sound with my sony 5400es. I really don't want to invest in a DAC unless it makes a significant impact ....

Does anyone know what DAC is inside the sony? Its a pity that more players don't come with an optical input like the cambridge audio 840c. It'd make a lot of sense to be able to tap into the DAC within.

mountain1 · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Nov 2010, 10:32 pm »

"I am not sure what ESS chip is being used in the PeachTree. I do not believe it is the 9018 that is used in the EE MiniMax. The quality of the power supply, I/E stage and output circuit will have more of an affect on the sound 0f the unit than just the D/A chip will."

The Peachtree IDac uses the ESS chip 9016 32 bit Sabre DAC per their literature.
S/N at the analog output 118 db "A" weighted.
Jitter measured at the master clock of the DAC <3 picoseconds.

Not sure what all that means but it is straight from their specs.

mitch stl · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Nov 2010, 06:03 pm »

I was using a Lavry DA-10 DAC with my SB3 when I acquired a Touch six or seven months ago.

I compared the analog outs of the Touch against the Lavry/SB3 combo in a synced and level-matched evaluation for about two weeks. I found I could not reliably tell the difference between the two without checking the position of the amp's input selector switch.

I sold the Lavry, moved the SB3 to a small second system, and have been happily using the Touch through its analog outs on my main system since.

poseidonsvoice · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Nov 2010, 06:24 pm »

Sweet. Nice mini review.

Anand.

Cacophonix · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Nov 2010, 06:49 pm »

So i hooked up SB touch in my main rig, and was taken aback by how much better it is compared to the duet. I cursed myself for not making the switch earlier

The analog out is very very good. It was only when i compared it with the analog out on my sony 5400es that i sensed its minor shortcomings. The Sony seemed to have better highs but i could sense this only when i switched back and forth rapidly.

Looking at mitch_stl's post, i see that the highly reviewed lavry didn't make such a difference compared to SB touch. So i am not sure that there is a DAC out there in my price range (~$600) that can better the touch.

Now, i need to look for cheap/easy mods that can improve SB Touch...

TJHUB · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Nov 2010, 07:05 pm »

Those of you that find the Touch's sound "good", do you factor in sound stage width, separation of instruments, and 3 dimensional sound into your evaluations? I run a stock Duet feeding a modified Music Hall DAC 25.2 and the Touch fell short for me in 2 ways.

First, the Touch's analog output had a narrow sound stage compared to my normal setup. I also found the highs to be a bit artificial sounding and the overall sound was just not engaging. The sound was also 1 dimensional for me. Basically the overall tone was ok, but it lacked a lot of the important attributes for my tastes.

Second, using the Touch's digital outputs into my DAC showed less than inspiring results as well. The coax output seemed to have harsh treble. It was harsh in a way that the treble sounded grainy to my ears. However, the optical out seemed ok with a quality cable and so close to my Duet's optical output that I decided to just stick with my Duet for time being.

I'm still surprised to see people think so highly of the Touch. Maybe it's just my limited experience, but for the record, I listened with a friend both on my setup and then on his. Our conclusions were very similar.

To the OP: I think the used Music Hall DAC 25.2 modified by Affordable Audio in the classifieds would be worth looking into. Also, do not hesitate to try a quality glass optical cable, you may just be surprised.

As always, YMMV.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Nov 2010, 07:20 pm »

In my experience with the SB products, much of the harshness can be reduced by using a linear power supply and removing the switcher from the wall outlet.

A very inexpensive 5 volt, 2 amp linear power supply can be found here . It will require the DIN DC connector to be removed and replaced with a 2.5 mm DC connector to fit the Touch. Higher quality power supplies will improve the sound even more.

The analog outputs in the Touch do have very low quality electrolytic capacitors in the signal path. Removing them will improve the sound quite a bit. Please note that the Touch is tricky to disassemble. Any removal of parts will void the warranty. The are other things that can be done to improve the power supply and the Touch. For more information on that, please ask questions in my circle.