[jsalk]

Now that we've had a chance to catch up and collect our thoughts, perhaps a few comments on RMAF 2010 would be in order. So here goes...

First, I’d like to thank Frank Van Alstine, Dean Barnell, Chris Hoff, Steve Nugent and Brian Pape for helping make this year’s RAMF event such a success.  Without their help and encouragement, it would certainly not have been possible.

IRIS ROOM

When Chris Hoff emailed and asked if we would be willing to supply a pair of SoundScapes for the Iris room, we were thrilled.  For years we have wanted a larger room to display speakers like our Veracity HT3’s and SoundScapes, but they simply were not available.  This was an opportunity we could not pass up.

Chris did a magnificent job coordinating the entire set-up.  His power conditioner and cables kept things clean and pristine.

Brian Pape and GIK nailed the room acoustics.  And the “guitar” panels were a great finishing touch.  The room had a very clean look and, more importantly, sounded great.

Steve Nugent supplied the music server, his Overdrive DAC’s and modded Parasound amps that simply made the SoundScapes sing.
 
The fact that Steven Stone of The Absolute Sound rated the Iris room “Best of Show – Cost no Object,” was simply icing on the cake and a testament to the efforts everyone put forth.  It just goes to show that AC Manufacturers can compete with anyone.

ROOM 2000

We also received many very favorable comments on the quality of the sound in room 2000, where Audio by Van Alstine gear was powering SongTowers and Veracity HT2-TLs.  Dean Barnell did a great job of running the show, allowing me to get out of the room from time to time.

We not only used our regular music server in room 2000, but many people were intrigued by Frank’s Atlona de-embedding set-up.  We were able to play SACD’s on a standard Oppo player, strip the digital audio from HDMI and feed it into an AVA Vision Hybrid DAC.  While the selection of SACDs we had was rather limited, it was still a good demonstration of what can be done with a little ingenuity.

Reading comments posted online after the show, I came across one comment I feel the need to address.  One poster commented that we should use gear other than AVA’s in our rooms at future shows.  The indication was that our speakers would sound better with higher-priced gear.

If cost is no object, are there better amps in the world?  Probably.  Would our speakers sound better with these amps?  Quite possibly.  But let’s look at it from the other direction.  If cost is no object, are there better speakers in the world?  Probably.  Would AVA gear sound better with these speakers? Quite possibly.

Unfortunately, for most consumers, cost is an object.  And AVA has a well-deserved reputation for delivering incredible value.  Take the AVA UltraValve for example.
The ST-70 is among the most popular tube amplifiers in the history of audio.  The UltraValve is AVA’s complete revision of this time-tested design and is a wonderful amp at any price.  Combined with our SongTowers, it is a marriage made in heaven.  As Dick Olsher stated in The Absolute Sound review of this combination, “The Salk Sound SongTower and Ultravalve combo represent the most musical audio dollars you’re ever likely to spend during a lifetime of consumption.”

Are there better tube amps in the world?  Probably.  But I would venture that none would offer the performance per dollar that this combination provides.

If cost is no object, options obviously increase.  But for the vast majority of our customers, I know that if they purchase AVA gear they will likely be very happy with the performance of their system.  And they will not have spent one penny more than necessary to achieve those results.  What’s more, they are unlikely to obtain better service than Frank and his team provides.  I know because I have been an AVA customer for years.

The point is this:  while using high-end, boutique source gear might increase the sound quality in our rooms at shows like RMAF, that type of equipment is probably beyond the reach of most of our customers.  The sound quality we demonstrate at shows is, at a minimum, what owners can expect in their homes.  If they want to improve the sound from there and have the money to do it, they always have the option of purchasing higher priced gear. There is no end to what you can spend to achieve the ultimate in sound reproduction. 

We certainly could show with more expensive amps, fancy speaker cables and the like. But when we show with AVA gear, you hear the performance you can expect from a system you can afford to have in your home.  You don’t have to mortgage your future in order to obtain sound quality that even the most experienced reviewers find very appealing.
 
THE CREW

Of course, none of this would be possible without the contribution of our talented and dedicated team.

Thanks to Dennis Murphy, Jeff Bagby and Paul Kittinger for some wonderful designs. 

Thanks to Ammar Dabesh, Mike Vettraino, Teresa Allen, Juan Luis Garcia, John Fallows, Jessica Vettraino, Sam Zeoli and my wife Mary, all of whom work with skill and dedication to turn our ideas into reality.  Without their efforts, we would not exist.

Again, thanks to everyone who helped make this RMAF our best ever and thanks to the many people who took the time to stop by and give us a listen.  Most appreciated.

- Jim

[Bill Baker]

Bravo Jim. Very nicely stated. There are a ton of "what ifs" but as you pointed out, your arrangement works for everyone involved and allows others to hear what they could actually have in their home.
 I thought the rooms sounded very good indeed.

[Meicheng]

I very much enjoyed the Soundscapes in the big room on the ground floor (I guess thats the Iris room), plus those guys were not afraid to crank up the volume from time to time!!!

[martyo]

Sounds as if it was an outstanding show. Deservedly so to all involved. 

You guys make a great team and your work has enriched our life.

The class that you bring to this profession along with your business transactions is unique.

Thanks Jim

[Paul K.]

I'm happy to have made a contribution and, that, both rooms were so well received. 
Paul

[avahifi]

Thanks Jim,

It is always a pleasure to work with you and Mary at the trade shows.  Our equipment certainly seems to work very well together and provide prospective buyers with very high quality at rational prices.

I wish it was as simple to work with aluminum and steel as it is with wood.  Not that it is at all easy to create masterpieces of art and sound in wood.  This show did tell us we need to pay more attention to making our equipment look nicer this coming year.  So how do we do polished wood faceplates? 

Short term our goals are more engineering to make the audio circuits work better yet, but then we have to switch to the art aspect of the equipment, tough to do and keep the real audio value intact.

Anyway, we will do our best to keep our equipment up to your standards of performance.  Dennis Murphy uses our equipment for your crossover design testing, I don't think we have let him down at all.

We will try again next spring at Detroit and hope to have new premium amplifiers that will make the Soundscapes really sing.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[woodsyi]

I am a firm believer in matching gears both in performance and price.  The AVA electronics and Song Towers sounded good when I was there.  The Sound Scapes and AVA were not as good together in Maryland but that room was really challenging.  Strictly looking at the list price as a guide, I would say the Sound Scapes are way too highly priced for the AVA electronics or the AVA gear is way too lowly priced for the Sound Scapes.  This is assuming both are compatible in performance in that neither is the limiting gear when producing music.  Either the AVA electronics are fabulous bargains or the Sound Scapes are over priced in my sense of proportion for price allocation of a system. 

I would love to hear the AVA premium gear with a built, tested and "show ready" Sound Scapes next year and see them sing together in harmony.  I can lend you guys some absorbers and diffusers if you can get a manageable size room.  Last year's room was too cavernous and hard to treat. 

[martyo]

Short term our goals are more engineering to make the audio circuits work better yet, but then we have to switch to the art aspect of the equipment, tough to do and keep the real audio value intact.

I hope in the process you will continue to provide us with budgets the utilitarian chassis that you always have. Maybe just a change from the hot red light, to a cool blue, since that is all I see when listening anyway.   

Seriously, thanks to you too Frank. 

[coke]

Thanks Jim,

It is always a pleasure to work with you and Mary at the trade shows.  Our equipment certainly seems to work very well together and provide prospective buyers with very high quality at rational prices.

I wish it was as simple to work with aluminum and steel as it is with wood.  Not that it is at all easy to create masterpieces of art and sound in wood.  This show did tell us we need to pay more attention to making our equipment look nicer this coming year.  So how do we do polished wood faceplates? 

Short term our goals are more engineering to make the audio circuits work better yet, but then we have to switch to the art aspect of the equipment, tough to do and keep the real audio value intact.

Anyway, we will do our best to keep our equipment up to your standards of performance.  Dennis Murphy uses our equipment for your crossover design testing, I don't think we have let him down at all.

We will try again next spring at Detroit and hope to have new premium amplifiers that will make the Soundscapes really sing.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

One thing that I would personally like is for the power light to be less bright. It's can be distracting at night.

Other than that, I really like the plain look of your equipment. 

[Mudslide]

I am a firm believer in matching gears both in performance and price.  The AVA electronics and Song Towers sounded good when I was there.  The Sound Scapes and AVA were not as good together in Maryland but that room was really challenging.  Strictly looking at the list price as a guide, I would say the Sound Scapes are way too highly priced for the AVA electronics or the AVA gear is way too lowly priced for the Sound Scapes.  This is assuming both are compatible in performance in that neither is the limiting gear when producing music.  Either the AVA electronics are fabulous bargains or the Sound Scapes are over priced in my sense of proportion for price allocation of a system. 

I would love to hear the AVA premium gear with a built, tested and "show ready" Sound Scapes next year and see them sing together in harmony.  I can lend you guys some absorbers and diffusers if you can get a manageable size room.  Last year's room was too cavernous and hard to treat.

Jim made a beautiful thank you statement to those who have helped him through RMAF.  So I should probably avoid the bait in this particular post, and just let it go.  But I cannot...because it's plain nonsense.

While pricing may have some direct relationship to performance, it is not always thus.  And in audio, where larceny and subjective opinion often prevail over science, testing, and even common sense, that relationship frequently does not exist.  What you are saying is that perception of quality, because of pricing, overrides actual quality based upon facts. 

Have you ever measured, or A/B or blind-tested your proposition?  Well, actually I have...on numerous pieces of equipment.  And I've also done it with the SS12's and AVA Insight gear.  I had the opportunity to A/B the SS12's with a popular brand of industry-perceived high quality drive gear that was 4 times the cost of the AVA Insight gear.  Both of the setups provided a wonderful, synergetic match to the SS12's.  There was zero, and I mean zero audible difference to my (and other) reasonably well-trained ears.   But you would buy the much more expensive setup for what reason?  (By the way, I do not own any AVA or Salk gear.)  Remember that all well designed drive gear (such as the AVA equipment) is transparent and should add nothing to the source.  Does much more expense make for much more transparency?

Regarding your experience, I think it has been stated multiple times here on A/C that the room in Maryland had awful acoustics.  (And rooms have a huge effect on loudspeaker presentation.)

You're asking Frank to do something a bit ridiculous and I hope he avoids the illogic of it.  (But if you insist, and it would make you feel better while you look to list price as a guide, I'd guess he'd triple the price of one of his amps for you.   )

Increased price frequently does not equate to audible performance improvements.

[DMurphy]

Dennis Murphy uses our equipment for your crossover design testing, I don't think we have let him down at all.

Not in the least--as anyone who's been to the Wehawken studios will affirm. The electronics are the last thing I would consider changing in my system.  But the speakers--they have got to go. 

[randybessinger]

Jim made a beautiful thank you statement to those who have helped him through RMAF.  So I should probably avoid the bait in this particular post, and just let it go.  But I cannot...because it's plain nonsense.

While pricing may have some direct relationship to performance, it is not always thus.  And in audio, where larceny and subjective opinion often prevail over science, testing, and even common sense, that relationship frequently does not exist.  What you are saying is that perception of quality, because of pricing, overrides actual quality based upon facts. 

Have you ever measured, or A/B or blind-tested your proposition?  Well, actually I have...on numerous pieces of equipment.  And I've also done it with the SS12's and AVA Insight gear.  I had the opportunity to A/B the SS12's with a popular brand of industry-perceived high quality drive gear that was 4 times the cost of the AVA Insight gear.  Both of the setups provided a wonderful, synergetic match to the SS12's.  There was zero, and I mean zero audible difference to my (and other) reasonably well-trained ears.   But you would buy the much more expensive setup for what reason?  (By the way, I do not own any AVA or Salk gear.)  Remember that all well designed drive gear (such as the AVA equipment) is transparent and should add nothing to the source.  Does much more expense make for much more transparency?

Regarding your experience, I think it has been stated multiple times here on A/C that the room in Maryland had awful acoustics.  (And rooms have a huge effect on loudspeaker presentation.)

You're asking Frank to do something a bit ridiculous and I hope he avoids the illogic of it.  (But if you insist, and it would make you feel better while you look to list price as a guide, I'd guess he'd triple the price of one of his amps for you.   )

Increased price frequently does not equate to audible performance improvements.

Great post.

[Big Red Machine]

Jim made a beautiful thank you statement to those who have helped him through RMAF.  So I should probably avoid the bait in this particular post, and just let it go.  But I cannot...because it's plain nonsense.

While pricing may have some direct relationship to performance, it is not always thus.  And in audio, where larceny and subjective opinion often prevail over science, testing, and even common sense, that relationship frequently does not exist.  What you are saying is that perception of quality, because of pricing, overrides actual quality based upon facts. 

Have you ever measured, or A/B or blind-tested your proposition?  Well, actually I have...on numerous pieces of equipment.  And I've also done it with the SS12's and AVA Insight gear.  I had the opportunity to A/B the SS12's with a popular brand of industry-perceived high quality drive gear that was 4 times the cost of the AVA Insight gear.  Both of the setups provided a wonderful, synergetic match to the SS12's.  There was zero, and I mean zero audible difference to my (and other) reasonably well-trained ears.   But you would buy the much more expensive setup for what reason?  (By the way, I do not own any AVA or Salk gear.)  Remember that all well designed drive gear (such as the AVA equipment) is transparent and should add nothing to the source.  Does much more expense make for much more transparency?

Regarding your experience, I think it has been stated multiple times here on A/C that the room in Maryland had awful acoustics.  (And rooms have a huge effect on loudspeaker presentation.)

You're asking Frank to do something a bit ridiculous and I hope he avoids the illogic of it.  (But if you insist, and it would make you feel better while you look to list price as a guide, I'd guess he'd triple the price of one of his amps for you.   )

Increased price frequently does not equate to audible performance improvements.

You missed his points I believe.  Woodsyi is not elitist as you make him out to be.  I read his post as there is tremendous value in both brands and they perform outside their present price ranges. 

[woodsyi]

Jim made a beautiful thank you statement to those who have helped him through RMAF.  So I should probably avoid the bait in this particular post, and just let it go.  But I cannot...because it's plain nonsense.

While pricing may have some direct relationship to performance, it is not always thus.  And in audio, where larceny and subjective opinion often prevail over science, testing, and even common sense, that relationship frequently does not exist.  What you are saying is that perception of quality, because of pricing, overrides actual quality based upon facts. 

Have you ever measured, or A/B or blind-tested your proposition?  Well, actually I have...on numerous pieces of equipment.  And I've also done it with the SS12's and AVA Insight gear.  I had the opportunity to A/B the SS12's with a popular brand of industry-perceived high quality drive gear that was 4 times the cost of the AVA Insight gear.  Both of the setups provided a wonderful, synergetic match to the SS12's.  There was zero, and I mean zero audible difference to my (and other) reasonably well-trained ears.   But you would buy the much more expensive setup for what reason?  (By the way, I do not own any AVA or Salk gear.)  Remember that all well designed drive gear (such as the AVA equipment) is transparent and should add nothing to the source.  Does much more expense make for much more transparency?

Regarding your experience, I think it has been stated multiple times here on A/C that the room in Maryland had awful acoustics.  (And rooms have a huge effect on loudspeaker presentation.)

You're asking Frank to do something a bit ridiculous and I hope he avoids the illogic of it.  (But if you insist, and it would make you feel better while you look to list price as a guide, I'd guess he'd triple the price of one of his amps for you.   )

Increased price frequently does not equate to audible performance improvements.

Mudslide,

Hard to believe you heard no difference one way or another.  I usually hear a difference when I change out a gear. 

I am speaking from a marketing perspective.  I don't think only showing them with AVA is good for Jim.  I am interested in the Sound Scapes but I don't have AVA gear.  I want to hear for myself and get feed backs from others who have heard the Sound Scapes with other gear.  Must I always hear them with AVA only?  Are there more potential buyers out there who may feel this way?

BTW, it was good to hear the SS in the Empirical room because I heard the SS with something else.  That amp/speakers combo was not my cup of tea and I now know.  I want to hear them with something else.

[catastrofe]

Mudslide,

Hard to believe you heard no difference one way or another.  I usually hear a difference when I change out a gear. 

I am speaking from a marketing perspective.  I don't think only showing them with AVA is good for Jim.  I am interested in the Sound Scapes but I don't have AVA gear.  I want to hear for myself and get feed backs from others who have heard the Sound Scapes with other gear.  Must I always hear them with AVA only?  Are there more potential buyers out there who may feel this way?

BTW, it was good to hear the SS in the Empirical room because I heard the SS with something else.  That amp/speakers combo was not my cup of tea and I now know.  I want to hear them with something else.

Maybe the appropiate perspective is that you'd like to hear the Soundscapes with some other highly regarded electronics.  This would be irrespective of price. . .

[woodsyi]

Maybe the appropiate perspective is that you'd like to hear the Soundscapes with some other highly regarded electronics.  This would be irrespective of price. . .

That's about right.  Usually you pay for what you get (up to a point when it gets silly), especially in the used market where marketing demand is figured in.  So price to some extent is an indication of supposed performance when you are considering gear.  If AVA performs much better than it's price range, then Frank is not doing himself any favor by underpricing them.  Good for us consumers though. 

[R Swerdlow]

Hard to believe you heard no difference one way or another.  I usually hear a difference when I change out a gear. 

I am speaking from a marketing perspective.  I don't think only showing them with AVA is good for Jim.  I am interested in the Sound Scapes but I don't have AVA gear.  I want to hear for myself and get feed backs from others who have heard the Sound Scapes with other gear.  Must I always hear them with AVA only?  Are there more potential buyers out there who may feel this way?

Have you ever measured, or A/B or blind-tested your proposition?  Well, actually I have...on numerous pieces of equipment.  And I've also done it with the SS12's and AVA Insight gear.  I had the opportunity to A/B the SS12's with a popular brand of industry-perceived high quality drive gear that was 4 times the cost of the AVA Insight gear.  Both of the setups provided a wonderful, synergetic match to the SS12's.  There was zero, and I mean zero audible difference to my (and other) reasonably well-trained ears…

I think this is a good example of Jim's dilemma at marketing his new top-of-the-line speakers.  On one side, many people tell him that to get potential buyers to take the SoundScapes seriously, you have to present them along with other gear they already take seriously.  And others, like Mudslide, say the AVA gear is excellent and anything more expensive is unlikely to do better.

For what its worth, I was present on the occasion Mudslide described above.  I heard what he heard and arrived at the same conclusion he made.

Jim's original post in this thread indicates which way he intends to go.  There are probably plenty who agree, and just as many who disagree.  I'm not sure which way will sell more speakers, and I'm glad I don't have to decide.

[Nuance]

Mudslide,

Hard to believe you heard no difference one way or another.  I usually hear a difference when I change out a gear. 

I am speaking from a marketing perspective.  I don't think only showing them with AVA is good for Jim.  I am interested in the Sound Scapes but I don't have AVA gear.  I want to hear for myself and get feed backs from others who have heard the Sound Scapes with other gear.  Must I always hear them with AVA only?  Are there more potential buyers out there who may feel this way?

BTW, it was good to hear the SS in the Empirical room because I heard the SS with something else.  That amp/speakers combo was not my cup of tea and I now know.  I want to hear them with something else.

They sounded very good in the Empircal (Iris) room in my opinion, but some tube action would really make them sing.  That new Modwright LS 100 preamp would have made for a great synergy.

[turkey]

I wish it was as simple to work with aluminum and steel as it is with wood.  Not that it is at all easy to create masterpieces of art and sound in wood.  This show did tell us we need to pay more attention to making our equipment look nicer this coming year.  So how do we do polished wood faceplates? 

The UltraValve is quite nice-looking and I think it's got a better look than the basic black of the rest of the AVA product line.

Maybe you could keep the bottom and backs of your chassis the same, change to a slightly thicker faceplate styled like the one on the UltraValve, and then change the top of the chassis to polished stainless steel?

I think that would look good on the preamps and DACs. I'm less sure about the big chassis amps because it might be too large an expanse of stainless.

Frank, I guess you just need to get busy with Photoshop and then have people look at the results and see what they like.

Another option would be to have Jim make wooden faceplates for you. If you did veneered wooden faceplates, maybe people could even get AVA equipment that matches their Salk speakers? That would be a neat tie-in.

[Mudslide]

You missed his points I believe.  Woodsyi is not elitist as you make him out to be.  I read his post as there is tremendous value in both brands and they perform outside their present price ranges.

This thread could go far afield.  And this issue has been discussed before.  My apologies to Jim. 

But, perhaps you missed my points, Pete.  This is a thread of thanks to Jim's cohorts.  It is not a place to punt the quality of AVA gear down the road because one person's perspective is that it doesn't have high enough quality, in this case for the SS's.   

I agree that perception is a key to marketing.  So let us change the perception that more money buys more quality.  It does not, necessarily.