Blackgate caps

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shep

Blackgate caps
« on: 25 Oct 2010, 04:58 pm »
I recently had my Cullens modified ICE amp further modified (by them) with a full set of Blackgates and the latest Vishay S foil resistors. I am aware that these are no longer the infamous BG's that took years to burn in (if ever), but after 100 hours things are still changing; sometimes for the better and sometimes not. Who else can share their experience with BG's? I would appreciate some...encouragement!

jtwrace

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Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #1 on: 25 Oct 2010, 05:08 pm »
Many say ~500 hrs but I don't think it takes that long...

*Scotty*

Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #2 on: 25 Oct 2010, 05:17 pm »
shep,if the audio signal passes through the BG than the only way they will break in is to have the signal pass through them while in use. Just having the circuit powered will not do the job. If the BGs are in the power supply as local decoupling caps or bypass caps then just powering the unit up and leaving it on will do the job. I have had the BGs in a coupling cap position take about a month to break in or 400 hrs of signal going through them. It seemed like big variations stopped occurring after about 200hrs.
Scotty

shep

Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #3 on: 25 Oct 2010, 05:32 pm »
I have not had the pleasure of opening my amp to see but since there are 16 of them, I'm assuming they are replacing all caps, and are not de-coupling or by-pass; in fact I know that for sure. I am familiar with cap burn in from various upgrades and  have established a routine: 5 hours on repeat or listening, 5 hours turned off to let the caps form and empty. I just have never had BG's in an amp and no idea what to expect. 400 hours + Gotta be nuts to go thru this (yet again). The first hours were frankly awfull. at the 50 hour mark music reappeared. Now they seem to be just hangin there not changing. I really hope the next weeks will do the trick. This was a risky venture; changing everything in an amp that was already stellar. Blackgates were not my cap of choice but space and money were the deciding factor and I have great faith (and experience) with Wyred4sound so I let him do his thing and keep fingers crossed.

Folsom

Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #4 on: 25 Oct 2010, 05:48 pm »
600 hr is full set in for anything in the signal path. 400 hr is nice. They sound good before that but not the same as after.

I have had multiple things with blackgates. The real trick is if the N type "non-polar" highest quality for signal were reversed. They have a negative and positive lead but sound better in reserve and are non-polar so there is no problem with reversing them. The only person to ever talk about it that I know is Peter Daniels. I can tell you from first hand experience it matters.

shep

Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #5 on: 25 Oct 2010, 06:09 pm »
Arn't I glad I asked  :( Peter Daniels is a very smart guy so I will certainly take your word on this but I'll be damned if I'm going to send the amp back to CA (I live in France) to reverse the polarity! I want to keep good relations...Neither will i do it myself! So...maybe I got lucky and he did them the "wrong" way around, although I doubt that. I wish you hadn't told me this...way to feed a guy's audio neurosis  :thumb:! So I have a time-line, which is called patience and hope. I should have known there's no free lunch on the rocky road to audio nirvana. 

*Scotty*

Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #6 on: 25 Oct 2010, 08:03 pm »
shep,with that many caps in there he has to have replaced all of the power supply caps at the very least.
The only way a power supply cap forms up is by having voltage applied to it. Stop turning the beast off. When it is turned off nothing is being broken in. Plus the caps may un-form to a degree. You are taking 2 steps forward and one step back everytime you turn the machine off. Leave it on for a week straight and come back to it. That would be about 100hrs. of straight ahead progress. My advice would be to never turn it off at all. I leave my SS preamp,poweramp and CD player on 24/7. Only my tube tuner is turned off and on. The BG caps are happiest when they are kept charged.
Scotty

shep

Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #7 on: 25 Oct 2010, 09:17 pm »
Thanks for the advice. Yes I have heard that BG's should always be under power (Fortunately the amp uses very little power in idle and runs coolish) but I wasn't sure if this also applied to their burn-in. I'm somewhat surprised that they should have such a sonic signature in the power supply section. This way I don't have to wait months for them to finally come on song! I had a rather amazing experience this evening. Yesterday the amp sounded so so... so what? It's been on all day at low vol. I cranked it up with an early Four Play cd and it knocked me out of my chair. I have never heard such a dramatic change in all my audio experience...like different speakers. The sound had blossomed in all directions;, a dramatic improvement in tranparency, timbre, texture...you name it. It's the first time this amp has created a soundstage laterally beyond the speakers. I am crossing my fingers this will only improve over time. There's still a slight congestion and an edge but the tranformation at this point is quite astonishing. Good times ahead! My oh my. any of you out there that think ICE amps are sterile or dry or chauky or whatever, believe me you have no idea.

Folsom

Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #8 on: 26 Oct 2010, 08:45 pm »
Yeah tell me about it... you should of seen me when I found that out and had to do it to my DAC I am selling. Remembering the effort to get that done and how hard it was with the TINY pcb holes it almost has a certain intangible priceless value to me.

Leave it on 24/7. Be warned though I would pick up a CD/DVD player at a thrift store for $5-10 and use it though. I have gone through two units that probably got burned out by me burning in Blackgates. Er or an Ipod... not that you have to listen to it.

They sound fine after burn in if you turn it off and on, but sound better after the first half of an album.

jtwrace

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Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #9 on: 26 Oct 2010, 09:25 pm »
Or just listen to the darn music and enjoy!

Cycling electronics is best for break in IMO.

bpape

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Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #10 on: 26 Oct 2010, 09:31 pm »
When I break things in, if possible, I just put them in the basement system, close the door, and let them run for a week 24/7 for starters.  That's over 150 hours right there. 

As for a source, that's what tuners are for 8)

Bryan

shep

Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #11 on: 2 Nov 2010, 07:44 pm »
Just a heads up. After about 250 hours the sound has gotten sweet and extended and harmonically very rich. Is it worth it? I guess so. If you are as neurotic about sqeezing the last ounce as I am, yes. The result at this point is totally engaging. It has really transformed this amp from very good to border-line great. I am getting some new cables so...maybe I'll cross the line soon  :thumb:

Folsom

Re: Blackgate caps
« Reply #12 on: 7 Nov 2010, 01:43 am »
The more revealing your speakers are the more you will get out of them.

Do you have any form of power conditioning?